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Groups > comp.theory > #108142
| From | "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic |
| Subject | Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? |
| Date | 2024-07-02 10:22 +0200 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <v60dci$1ib5p$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | <v5vkun$1b0k9$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Op 02.jul.2024 om 03:25 schreef olcott:
> typedef void (*ptr)();
> int HHH(ptr P);
>
> void Infinite_Loop()
> {
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
> void Infinite_Recursion()
> {
> Infinite_Recursion();
> }
>
> void DDD()
> {
> HHH(DDD);
> }
>
> int main()
> {
> HHH(Infinite_Loop);
> HHH(Infinite_Recursion);
> HHH(DDD);
> }
>
> Every C programmer that knows what an x86 emulator is knows
> that when HHH emulates the machine language of Infinite_Loop,
> Infinite_Recursion, and DDD that it must abort these emulations
> so that itself can terminate normally.
Whether or not it *must* abort is not very relevant. It is relevant that
it *does* abort. That is relevant when determining whether it is correct.
>
> When this is construed as non-halting criteria then simulating
> termination analyzer HHH is correct to reject these inputs as
> non-halting by returning 0 to its caller.
Therefore, whether or not it must abort, is incorrect criteria. The fact
that it *does* abort (and aborts too early to see correctly the
behaviour) shows that the simulation is incorrect.
>
> Simulating termination analyzers must report on the behavior
> that their finite string input specifies thus HHH must report
> that DDD correctly emulated by HHH remains stuck in recursive
> simulation.
It is not stuck in recursive simulation. We are speaking about an HHH
that *does* abort after two cycles. So, not stuck, the simulation is
only aborted too soon.
Dreaming of another HHH that got stuck because it does not abort is
irrelevant, because this HHH *does* abort.
>
> Everyone else seems to be flat out dishonest or totally ignorant.
> At least one of my reviewers does not seem to understand that
> infinite recursion does not halt.
>
It is dishonest to claim that two equals infinite.
Two cycles of recursive simulation is not equal to an infinite recursion.
You don't seem to understand such simple facts.
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Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 20:25 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-01 21:51 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 21:09 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-01 22:35 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 21:52 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-01 23:09 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 22:31 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 07:30 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 07:26 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 18:44 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-02 09:23 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 07:20 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-03 10:27 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:11 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-04 09:09 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-02 10:22 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 07:22 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-02 20:42 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 14:00 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-02 21:17 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 14:46 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 18:44 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 18:03 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 21:07 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 20:18 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 21:25 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 20:32 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 21:51 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 21:03 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 22:35 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 22:07 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-02 23:23 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 22:43 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 07:44 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:27 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 14:16 +0000
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 09:29 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 17:40 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 10:51 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 18:04 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-07-03 16:18 +0000
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 11:24 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 20:01 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 13:04 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 20:20 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 13:21 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 20:41 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 13:23 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-04 09:21 +0300
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant --- AKA is Fred a Liar ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 19:58 +0200
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 10:20 +0000
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:48 -0500
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 13:36 +0000
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:25 -0400
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-05 10:07 +0300
Re: Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-04 09:15 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:37 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-05 10:16 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-05 11:06 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-06 09:20 +0300
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 04:09 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 10:33 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:22 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 17:44 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 10:53 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 18:05 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 20:04 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 11:14 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Richard seems to be willfully ignorant "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 20:08 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? --- Olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 04:05 +0000
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 23:14 -0500
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 07:44 -0400
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:29 -0500
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 14:36 +0000
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 09:43 -0500
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Re: olcott seems to be willfully ignorant joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 14:41 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-03 10:42 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:13 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-04 09:29 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:39 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-05 10:20 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-05 07:08 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-05 11:11 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 03:50 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 22:55 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 10:42 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 08:24 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 17:52 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 10:55 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 18:09 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 11:21 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-03 19:56 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 10:38 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:50 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 13:38 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 08:43 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 15:07 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 10:56 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 12:07 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 16:22 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 16:32 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 11:39 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 12:57 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 12:33 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 13:47 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-05 10:32 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-05 07:15 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-05 11:13 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 11:05 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 12:16 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 16:27 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 11:09 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:53 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 13:09 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 08:32 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 15:03 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 10:58 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 16:24 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 11:29 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 16:34 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 11:45 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 12:50 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-03 14:11 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 09:19 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Yes to both for Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 19:18 -0400
Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 19:40 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 21:17 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 20:26 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 21:47 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 21:05 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? For Olcott: YES to both. Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 22:34 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 21:41 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-03 23:05 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 22:21 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-04 09:52 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:43 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-04 21:32 +0200
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Liar ??? Maybe... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:25 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-04 09:42 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:41 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-04 11:24 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-05 10:27 +0300
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-05 07:10 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? Can ADD be this severe? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-05 11:15 -0400
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-04 10:13 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 07:45 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-02 11:32 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 07:23 -0500
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-02 14:48 +0000
Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 09:54 -0500
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