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Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie?

From Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic
Subject Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie?
Date 2024-06-23 22:28 -0400
Organization i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID <v5aljm$smd5$9@i2pn2.org> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <v5ah6u$smd5$7@i2pn2.org> <v5ahkc$jgfe$1@dont-email.me> <v5aid9$nd1b$1@dont-email.me> <v5ak5n$smd4$7@i2pn2.org> <v5akni$nr6u$2@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 6/23/24 10:13 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/23/2024 9:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/23/24 9:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/23/2024 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/23/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 6/23/24 9:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/23/2024 7:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/23/24 8:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2024 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/24 7:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2024 5:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/24 6:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You know what the freak I was talking from prior
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions unless your brain is so damaged that
>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't remember anything from one post to the next.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case that you affirm that your brain <is>
>>>>>>>>>>>> this damaged then I humbly apologize.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, you don't know what you are talking about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you insist on lying about this verified fact?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55               push ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call H0(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d               pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3               ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> According to the semantics of the x86 programming language
>>>>>>>>>> when DDD correctly emulated by H0 calls H0(DDD) this call
>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly return.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I won't say it can't be true, but it hasn't been proven, 
>>>>>>>>> largely because it seems you don't know how to do a formal 
>>>>>>>>> logic proof.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then where is the proof?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And were is the simulation that H0 did?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Failure to show where you ACTUALLY PROVED it just shows you a liar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember the parts of a Formal Logic Proof:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could disagree that 2 + 3 = 5 on this same Jackass basis.
>>>>>> 2 + 3 = 5 ON THE FREAKING BASIS OF THE SEMANTICS OF ARITHMETIC.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I seen proofs that 2 + 3 = 5
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is done on a proof that uses the semantics of aritmetic.
>>>>>
>>>>> The phrase "Semantics of Arithmetic" though, is not a proof.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the semantics of the x86 programming language
>>>>>> when DDD correctly emulated by H0 calls H0(DDD) this call
>>>>>> cannot possibly return.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then try to prove it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will not try any prove that 2 + 3 = 5, if you deny
>>>> it then you are a liar.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise for the behavior of DDD correctly simulated
>>>> by H0. A correct x86 emulator already proved this three
>>>> years ago and you still try and get away with lying about it.
>>>>
>>>> We have gotten it down to this ONLY LIARS WILL DISAGREE
>>>> THAT MY PROOF IS CORRECT.
>>>>
>>>> DDD correctly emulated by H0 DOES NOT HALT.
>>>> Likewise for P correctly emulated by H.
>>>>
>>>> typedef int (*ptr2)();
>>>> int H(ptr2 P, ptr2 I);
>>>>
>>>> int P(ptr2 x)
>>>> {
>>>>    int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>    return Halt_Status;
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> int main()
>>>> {
>>>>    H(P,P);
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> _P()
>>>> [000020e2] 55               push ebp         ; housekeeping
>>>> [000020e3] 8bec             mov ebp,esp      ; housekeeping
>>>> [000020e5] 51               push ecx         ; housekeeping
>>>> [000020e6] 8b4508           mov eax,[ebp+08] ; parameter
>>>> [000020e9] 50               push eax         ; push parameter
>>>> [000020ea] 8b4d08           mov ecx,[ebp+08] ; parameter
>>>> [000020ed] 51               push ecx         ; push parameter
>>>> [000020ee] e82ff3ffff       call 00001422    ; call H(P,P)
>>>> [000020f3] 83c408           add esp,+08
>>>> [000020f6] 8945fc           mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>> [000020f9] 837dfc00         cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>> [000020fd] 7402             jz 00002101
>>>> [000020ff] ebfe             jmp 000020ff
>>>> [00002101] 8b45fc           mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>> [00002104] 8be5             mov esp,ebp
>>>> [00002106] 5d               pop ebp
>>>> [00002107] c3               ret
>>>> Size in bytes:(0038) [00002107]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It took me a couple of years to realize the key difference
>>> between P(P) and P correctly simulated by H is that in the
>>> latter case the call to H(P,P) cannot possibly return.
>>>
>> And no one disagrees that they are different. 
> 
> You are lying about that.
> everyone has consistently disagreed
> that they can possibly be different.

The STEPS that H simulates in H correctly (partially) simulating its 
input must exactly match the corresponding steps of the machine 
represented by the input directly executed. (and to do either, you need 
to fix your input to include all the instructions of the decider that 
the input uses).

What is different is the conclusion, but you run into the issue that we 
need different inputs for the two problems. The "Direct Execution" 
problem, needs the input to be an actual specific machine, that could be 
a template instantiated on a given decider.

Your "Correctly Simulated by H" falls apart on that case, as if H is a 
fixed decider, if it aborted before it reached the end, of course it 
didn't simulate to the end, (but the same input, that has been 
instantiated to that H, when given to an actual complete simulator, will 
see it halts). Your "Correctly Simulated by H" problem only makes sense 
for tempalte inputs, which are impropper for the direct execution case.

So, they end up being totally different problems as their input spaces 
are just diffferent.

> 
> You tried to get away with claiming that D correctly
> simulated by H must return to its caller.

WHEN?

I think you need to check your medications, as you are hallucinating.

Please show where I said that.

Not that the dirrect execution gets there, as it must if H returns 0, 
but the emulated by the decider got there.

> 
> Now that I boxed you into a corner you are trying
> to get away with saying that you never said that.
> 

So, When did I say that D correctly simulated by H must return to the 
caller?

You are just making things up because you are just a pathological liar.

I will note, you have an abismal record of showing proof of your claims, 
even when you claim someone has said something.

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Thread

DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 08:40 -0500
  Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? (typo corrected) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 09:00 -0500
  Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 14:20 -0400
    Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 16:41 -0500
      Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 17:49 -0400
        Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 17:04 -0500
          Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 18:35 -0400
            Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 17:45 -0500
              Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 18:58 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 18:34 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 19:44 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 19:08 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 20:24 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 20:00 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 21:13 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 20:20 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 21:30 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 20:36 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 22:00 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 21:09 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 22:16 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 21:27 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 22:31 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 21:38 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 21:52 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 23:11 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 22:26 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 07:02 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 08:39 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:17 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 18:38 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:57 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 08:42 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:19 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 18:43 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:59 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 19:02 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 20:06 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 19:34 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 20:54 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:05 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 21:13 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:22 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 21:24 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure (typo) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:07 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure (typo) Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 21:22 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:32 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 21:51 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:55 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 22:02 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 21:17 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 22:25 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 21:21 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 22:26 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 21:38 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 22:48 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 21:52 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 06:59 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 22:13 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 07:04 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 08:02 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 21:47 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 20:59 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 22:17 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 21:21 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 22:54 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 22:25 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 23:32 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 22:37 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 06:58 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 08:33 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 19:41 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 18:50 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 19:52 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 19:19 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 20:38 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 19:24 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 20:40 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 20:12 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 21:21 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 21:10 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 22:38 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 21:46 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 23:16 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 22:37 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-27 07:34 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 08:21 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-27 19:57 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 22:25 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-28 07:44 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 07:28 -0500
                Re: Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-28 12:58 +0000
                Re: Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 09:33 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? -- Repeat until Closure Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-28 23:49 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 23:09 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-25 09:14 +0000
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 20:33 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 22:03 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 21:13 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 22:28 -0400
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-24 19:44 +0000
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 15:05 -0500
                Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:19 -0400
  Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 07:02 -0400
    Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 08:48 -0500
      Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 --- Why Lie? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 19:47 -0400

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