Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2

From	Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2
Date	2024-06-17 18:54 -0400
Organization	i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID	<v4qeqe$a0nn$1@i2pn2.org> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <v4n9rb$5d22$2@dont-email.me> <v4nb63$61la$1@i2pn2.org> <v4nc6j$5spn$1@dont-email.me> <v4ncqo$61l9$9@i2pn2.org> <v4pdvl$ln46$12@dont-email.me>

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On 6/17/24 9:33 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/16/2024 2:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/16/24 2:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/16/2024 1:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/16/24 2:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/16/2024 1:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/16/24 1:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 10:02 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 9:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Jun 2024 07:44:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 2:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whenever a decider is run it answers the question it is made 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to answer.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. Just because everyone falsely assumes that D 
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly
>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H must have the same behavior as the directly 
>>>>>>>>>>> executed D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>> does not make this false assumption true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You still need to explain how you can call a simulation that 
>>>>>>>>>> differs from
>>>>>>>>>> the behaviour of its input "correct".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed, you do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have proven it many times and this proof is simply over
>>>>>>>>> everyone's heads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nonsense!  How about, instead of "proving", actually explaining? 
>>>>>>>> If a
>>>>>>>> simulation differs from its original, it's not a simulation; 
>>>>>>>> it's just a
>>>>>>>> random program.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I ask what your C programming skill level is, this *is not* a
>>>>>>>>> rhetorical question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The question has nothing to do with C programming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)(); // pointer to void function
>>>>>>> int H(ptr P, ptr I);
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> int D(int (*x)())
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>    return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unless I make every single detail 100% explicit false
>>>>>>> assumptions always slip though the cracks. The ONLY way
>>>>>>> to make EVERY SINGLE DETAIL 100% EXPLICIT is the x86
>>>>>>> programming language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There cannot possibly be any H that correctly emulates
>>>>>>> the x86 machine code of D according to the semantics
>>>>>>> of the x86 programming language such that the emulated
>>>>>>> D ever reaches its own emulated final state at machine
>>>>>>> address [00001f58].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is just a strawman, as the requirement on H is NOT to answer 
>>>>>> about "D correctly simulated by H" but about "the program 
>>>>>> represented by the input directly executed", or equivalently, 
>>>>>> simulated by an actual UTM, which is a simulator that NEVER stops 
>>>>>> until it reaches a final state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is simply over-your-head.
>>>>> I am very glad of that because the alternative would
>>>>> possibly condemn your soul to Hell.
>>>>
>>>> Whats over my head? That the definition of a Halt Decider beihg that 
>>>> it decides on the behavior of the program represented by the input 
>>>> halting when run?
>>>>
>>>
>>> void DDD()
>>> {
>>>    H0(DDD);
>>> }
>>>
>>> int main()
>>> {
>>>    H0(DDD);
>>> }
>>>
>>> That the machine language finite string input DD0
>>> to any simulating halt decider HH0(DD0) cannot
>>> possibly even ask about the behavior of DD0().
>>>
>>
>> Because it doesn't NEED to.
>>
> 
> I am happy that I found out you are not a liar.
> You just don't understand these thing very well.
> 
> If a decider is being asked if N > 5?
> and the programmer expects the answer to a different question
> then the programmer is incorrect.
Right, just like if H0 does anything but report on the behavior of the 
machine described by its inout, then H0's prograam is just incorrect.


> 
> If the programmer expects H0(DDD) to report on the
> behavior of DDD(DDD), then the programmer is incorrect.

No, sinee that is DOCUMENTED DEFINITION of it, since H0 is called a Halt 
Decider.

> 
>> By being called a "Halt Decider", HH0 DEFINES what question it is 
>> being asked, the only question are the parameters of the question, 
>> which is What is the Program and input to decide on.
>>
> 
> H0(DDD) does correctly report on the behavior that its
> input specifies and does not report on the behavior that
> its input does not specify.

So, are you admitting to LYING that H0 is a Halt Decider, or are you 
LYING that you correctly programmed H0?

If H0 is a Halt Decider, the DEFINITION of the "bahavior of its input" 
is the behavior of the program the input describes, which in this case 
is DDD().

> 
>> You are just showing you are absoluting IGNORANT of what you talk 
>> about, and have been just LYING about it for years.
>>
> 
> No the whole actual issue is that you have always been somewhat
> more clueless than I ever expected.

No, you have just been a pathological liar, that just seems to forget 
the defintion of the problem he claims to be working on.

> 
> That an input finite string of machine code must be mapped to
> the behavior that it specifies through a sequence of finite
> string transformation rules according to the semantics of the
> x86 language is totally over your head.

No, it CAN only go to what can be found by a sequence of finite string 
transforms, but to be correct, it must go to the mapping of the function 
it is defined to be computing, which is Halting, which maps the input to 
the behavior of the machine described by the input.

> 
> Mapping finite strings to behavior is not looking up how
> to get to Florida in Google maps.

Right, but for a Halt Decider, it IS the uncomputable mapping to the 
behavior of the program represented by the input.

> 
>> I'm sorry, but I think your "license to do logic" has been revoked, 
>> and you are being punished for attempted murder on logic.
> 
> When you don't have a slight clue about what I said you try
> to get away with masking your own ignorance with rhetoric.
> *That surely works on dumb bunnies and other clueless wonders*
> 

Nope, You re judt showing that you totally don't understadn the basic 
rules of logic, and thus, it is shown that everyone must just ignore 
what you "claim" to be true, as you have shown that it most likely is not.

Thread

H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:07 -0500
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 23:40 -0400
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:53 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 06:56 -0400
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:32 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-15 11:57 +0000
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:30 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-15 14:57 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:17 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 11:08 +0200
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 16:15 +0200
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 09:28 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 10:41 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-15 15:19 +0300
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-16 10:50 +0300
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:44 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-16 14:16 +0000
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-16 16:38 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 09:41 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 15:02 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 12:44 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:06 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:10 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:33 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:50 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 15:01 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:54 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 21:06 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 17:36 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 15:58 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-17 00:21 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 19:26 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:33 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:44 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 21:12 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:19 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:55 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:17 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:11 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:43 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:13 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:48 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:13 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:39 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:36 +0300
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:32 +0300
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:12 -0500

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