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Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2

From Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2
Date 2024-06-16 14:06 -0400
Organization i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID <v4n9ip$61l9$8@i2pn2.org> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <v4mmnp$1qt6$2@dont-email.me> <v4ms37$5nh5$1@i2pn2.org> <v4mtif$3cbf$1@dont-email.me> <v4muph$1sav$1@news.muc.de> <v4n8ac$5d22$1@dont-email.me>

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On 6/16/24 1:44 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/16/2024 10:02 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>> olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/16/2024 9:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Sun, 16 Jun 2024 07:44:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 6/16/2024 2:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Whenever a decider is run it answers the question it is made to 
>>>>>> answer.
>>>>> Not necessarily. Just because everyone falsely assumes that D 
>>>>> correctly
>>>>> simulated by H must have the same behavior as the directly executed 
>>>>> D(D)
>>>>> does not make this false assumption true.
>>
>>>> You still need to explain how you can call a simulation that differs 
>>>> from
>>>> the behaviour of its input "correct".
>>
>> Indeed, you do.
>>
>>> I have proven it many times and this proof is simply over
>>> everyone's heads.
>>
>> Nonsense!  How about, instead of "proving", actually explaining?  If a
>> simulation differs from its original, it's not a simulation; it's just a
>> random program.
>>
>>> When I ask what your C programming skill level is, this *is not* a
>>> rhetorical question.
>>
>> The question has nothing to do with C programming.
>>
> 
> typedef void (*ptr)(); // pointer to void function
> int H(ptr P, ptr I);
> 
> int D(int (*x)())
> {
>    int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>    if (Halt_Status)
>      HERE: goto HERE;
>    return Halt_Status;
> }
> 
> Unless I make every single detail 100% explicit false
> assumptions always slip though the cracks. The ONLY way
> to make EVERY SINGLE DETAIL 100% EXPLICIT is the x86
> programming language.
> 
> There cannot possibly be any H that correctly emulates
> the x86 machine code of D according to the semantics
> of the x86 programming language such that the emulated
> D ever reaches its own emulated final state at machine
> address [00001f58].
> 

Which is just a strawman, as the requirement on H is NOT to answer about 
"D correctly simulated by H" but about "the program represented by the 
input directly executed", or equivalently, simulated by an actual UTM, 
which is a simulator that NEVER stops until it reaches a final state.

For this input, D(D), since H(D,D) returns 0, D(D) will Halt, so H is 
just wrong by definition, and you by the attempt to use a strawman.

> _D()
> [00001f33] 55         push ebp
> [00001f34] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00001f36] 51         push ecx
> [00001f37] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001f3a] 50         push eax        ; push D
> [00001f3b] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00001f3e] 51         push ecx        ; push D
> [00001f3f] e87ff7ffff call 000016c3   ; call H(D,D)
> [00001f44] 83c408     add esp,+08
> [00001f47] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00001f4a] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00001f4e] 7402       jz 00001f52
> [00001f50] ebfe       jmp 00001f50
> [00001f52] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
> [00001f55] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
> [00001f57] 5d         pop ebp
> [00001f58] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0038) [00001f58]
> 
> Once the above is understood (people quit denying verified facts).
> thenn (then and only then) I can show how this applies to Turing
> machines.
> 

No, YOU are the one denying DEFINED FACTS.

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H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:07 -0500
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 23:40 -0400
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:53 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 06:56 -0400
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:32 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-15 11:57 +0000
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:30 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-15 14:57 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:17 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 11:08 +0200
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 16:15 +0200
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 09:28 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 10:41 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-15 15:19 +0300
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-16 10:50 +0300
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:44 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-16 14:16 +0000
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-16 16:38 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 09:41 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 15:02 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 12:44 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:06 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:10 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:33 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:50 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 15:01 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:54 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 21:06 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 17:36 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 15:58 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-17 00:21 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 19:26 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:33 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:44 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 21:12 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:19 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:55 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:17 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:11 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:43 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:13 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:48 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:13 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:39 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:36 +0300
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:32 +0300
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:12 -0500

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