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Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2

From olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2
Date 2024-06-16 07:44 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v4mmnp$1qt6$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <v4j0h2$39gh7$3@dont-email.me> <v4k0sr$3f4m3$1@dont-email.me> <v4k44j$3fmth$1@dont-email.me> <v4m5gj$3v41v$1@dont-email.me>

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On 6/16/2024 2:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-06-15 13:14:57 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 6/15/2024 7:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-15 03:07:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>  > On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >> It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H computes
>>>>  >> the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string input to
>>>>  >> H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules specified by
>>>>  >> the semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches the
>>>>  >> behavior of the directly executed D(D)
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Why? I don't claim it can.
>>>>
>>>> _D()
>>>> [00000cfc](01) 55          push ebp
>>>> [00000cfd](02) 8bec        mov ebp,esp
>>>> [00000cff](03) 8b4508      mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>> [00000d02](01) 50          push eax       ; push D
>>>> [00000d03](03) 8b4d08      mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>> [00000d06](01) 51          push ecx       ; push D
>>>> [00000d07](05) e800feffff  call 00000b0c  ; call H
>>>> [00000d0c](03) 83c408      add esp,+08
>>>> [00000d0f](02) 85c0        test eax,eax
>>>> [00000d11](02) 7404        jz 00000d17
>>>> [00000d13](02) 33c0        xor eax,eax
>>>> [00000d15](02) eb05        jmp 00000d1c
>>>> [00000d17](05) b801000000  mov eax,00000001
>>>> [00000d1c](01) 5d          pop ebp
>>>> [00000d1d](01) c3          ret
>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [00000d1d]
>>>>
>>>> If there is no mapping from the input to H(D,D) to the behavior
>>>> of D(D) then H is not even being asked about the behavior of D(D).
>>>> H has no obligation to answer questions *THAT IT IS NOT BEING ASKED*
>>>
>>> The halting problem specification does not say that a halt decider
>>> can be asked questions.
>>
>> *It assumes that you already know that*
> 
> What assumes? Why would it assume anything about me?
> 
>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a
>> decision problem is a computational problem that can be posed
>> as a yes–no question of the input values.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
> 
> That's true. But a decider cannot be asked a question.

The input to a decider is isomorphic to a yes or no question.

> Whenever a
> decider is run it answers the question it is made to answer.

Not necessarily. Just because everyone falsely assumes that D
correctly simulated by H must have the same behavior as the
directly executed D(D) does not make this false assumption true.

>  The
> input to the decider is a part of the question but is not itself
> a question.
> 

The combination of the input and the algorithm is the question.
H is only asked about the behavior of D correctly simulated by H
and is not asked about the behavior of the directly executed D(D).

Just because everyone assumes that they must be the same does not
make this assumption correct.

> However, every decision problem can be presented differently,
> whithout posing a qeustion.
> 

That is incorrect. Also it must be a yes / no question.
If you ask a decider what it the value of 5 * 6, it stops
being a decider.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:07 -0500
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 23:40 -0400
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 22:53 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 06:56 -0400
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:32 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-15 11:57 +0000
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:30 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-15 14:57 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:17 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 11:08 +0200
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 07:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-15 16:15 +0200
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 09:28 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 10:41 -0400
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-15 15:19 +0300
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 08:14 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 09:52 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-16 10:50 +0300
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:44 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-16 14:16 +0000
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-16 16:38 +0200
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 09:41 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 15:02 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 12:44 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:06 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:10 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 14:33 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:50 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 15:01 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:54 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-16 21:06 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 17:36 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 15:58 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-06-17 00:21 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 19:26 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:33 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2024-06-16 18:44 -0600
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 21:12 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:19 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:55 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:17 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:11 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:14 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:43 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:13 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:33 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-17 16:48 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 19:13 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:39 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:36 +0300
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:13 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:32 +0300
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:12 -0500

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