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Groups > comp.theory > #107013
| From | olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic |
| Subject | Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works |
| Date | 2024-06-12 20:16 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <v4dh90$1tsdf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <v4b1l7$3nf9m$9@i2pn2.org> <v4b40r$1f89t$2@dont-email.me> <v4c12n$3oop0$1@i2pn2.org> <v4c6e9$1lec5$2@dont-email.me> <v4dch4$3qbnc$6@i2pn2.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 6/12/2024 6:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/12/24 9:05 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/12/2024 6:33 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/11/24 11:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Which Mendelson would encode as: ⊢𝒞
>>>> A {cat} <is defined as a type of> {animal}.
>>>
>>> So, what is that statements truth-maker?
>>>
>>> And the truth-maker of that?
>>>
>>> You need a set of "first truth-makers" that do not themselves have
>>> something more fundamental at their truth-makers.
>>
>> I have always had that and told you about it dozens of times.
>> Some otherwise meaningless finite strings are stipulated to be
>> true thus providing these finite strings with meaning.
>> https://liarparadox.org/Meaning_Postulates_Rudolf_Carnap_1952.pdf
>> Bachelor(x) <entails> ~Married(x)
>
> But that doesn't fit your defintion of a Truth having a truth maker.
>
OK then you disagree that cats are animals.
As I have told you many hundreds of times DEFINITION
is the foundational basis of every expression that
is {true on the basis of its meaning.
>>
>> If there really is nothing anywhere that makes expression
>> of language X true then X is untrue.
>>
>> This covers every truth that can possibly exist, true by
>> definition, true by entailment, true by observation, true
>> by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>> If nothing makes X true then X is untrue.
>
> So a "true by definition" or "stipulated truth" needs a truth maker.
>
DEFINITION is the foundational TRUTH-MAKER
for every expression that is
{true on the basis of its meaning.
> What makes that definition or stuplation "true", what is its truth-maker?
>
What is it about a cat that makes it not
a fifteen story officen building?
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic
>>>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>>>> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But logic systems don't necessaily deal with "expressions of
>>>>>>> language" in the sense you seem to be thinking of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finite strings are the most generic form of "expressions of language"
>>>>>
>>>>> And not all things are finite strings.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every expression of language that is {true on the basis of its meaning}
>>>> is a finite string that is connected to the expressions of language
>>>> that
>>>> express its meaning.
>>>
>>> And that just gets you into circles,
>>
>> A tree of knowledge has no cycles. Willard Van Orman Quine
>> was too stupid to see this.
>> https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html
>
> And then what is at is root? Show me a word that can be "defined"
> without using any other words.
>
The Cyc project has {thing} at its root.
>>
>>> as the expression of language that expresses its meaning needs a
>>> truth-maker too, and that need one for it, and so one.
>>>
>>
>> Some expressions of language are stipulated to be true
>> thus giving them meaning. Rudolf Carnap may have been
>> the first to formalize this with his meaning Postulates.
>
> But what gives the meaning to the stipulation?
>
How do you know that a cat is not a fifteen story office building?
> A stipulation is just a piece of language, what gives it meaning other
> than the words it uses, which need definitions.
>
There are a set of relations that exist.
Their encoding in the various human languages is arbitrary.
That is the stipulated part.
>>
>> https://liarparadox.org/Meaning_Postulates_Rudolf_Carnap_1952.pdf
>> Bachelor(x) <entails> ~Married(x)
>>
>>> You need a primative base that is accepted without proof, as there is
>>> nothing to prove it, and that base defines the logic system you are
>>> going to work in.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This entails that if there is nothing in the universe that makes
>>>>>>>> expression X true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unless it just is true because it is a truthmaker by definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is more than nothing in the universe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> but what makes the definition "true"? What is its truth-maker?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not everything has a truth-maker, because it might be a truth-maker
>>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> Basic facts are stipulated to be true.
>>>> "A cat is an animal" is the same basic fact expressed
>>>> in every human language and their mathematically
>>>> formalized versions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, basic facts do not have a truth-maker in their universe.
>>
>> True by definition is their truthmaker.
>
> Not by your definition.
>
When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker?
The generic answer is whatever makes an expression
of language true <is> its truthmaker.
When I say ALL THINGS you and most people in truthmaker theory
misinterpret EVERYTHING to mean a few things of a certain type.
>>
>>>
>>> But "A cat is an animal" is NOT a statement that is true in every
>>> system, as some systems might not HAVE a concept of "cat" in it at
>>> all, so that would be a non-sense expression, or might even define it
>>> to be something else.
>>>
>>
>> *That has already been covered by this*
>> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic answer is
>> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>
>>
>> This entails that if there is nothing in the universe that makes
>> expression X true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
>
> But what them makes the truthmaker true? You said there were no cycles.
>
It is like a consistent set of axioms.
{A cat is an animal} no matter what human language
that is encoded within.
>>
>>> YOu still keep on running into the problem that youu mind clearly
>>> doesn't understand that expresability of logic, and you are stuck
>>> just not understanding how abstractions work.
>>
>> Not at all. The problem is that you have not yet paid
>> 100% complete attention to ALL of my words.
>>
>
> so, what makes the truthmakers true?
>
What makes {cats} not {fifteen story office buildings} ?
it is merely the conventions of language ?
> If they make themselves true, then you have a cycle, which you said you
> didn't.
>
There is no cycle. It is all one huge tree of knowledge.
I used to be able to link to the Cyc project's tree of
knowledge. I have an offline copy of it.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
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Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 10:36 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:18 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:13 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:29 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:54 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 15:36 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 21:47 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 22:56 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 22:12 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 07:16 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 11:09 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 23:32 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 12:30 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 19:22 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:43 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:34 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 21:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 23:01 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:20 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 10:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:49 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 19:44 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 20:57 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:37 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:21 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:42 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:15 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:51 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 23:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 07:30 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 08:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 22:45 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 22:50 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 07:39 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 08:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-10 10:19 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 09:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-11 10:57 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 23:00 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-10 10:13 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 09:43 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-11 10:45 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 11:06 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:57 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:37 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 08:05 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:55 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:16 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:48 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 10:13 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 07:44 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 16:41 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 09:08 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 19:45 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 12:00 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-13 09:17 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 07:21 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-13 18:40 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 11:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 22:48 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-09 17:40 +0000
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:10 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:31 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:48 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:57 -0400
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