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Groups > comp.theory > #107007
| From | Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic |
| Subject | Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works |
| Date | 2024-06-12 19:55 -0400 |
| Organization | i2pn2 (i2pn.org) |
| Message-ID | <v4dch4$3qbnc$6@i2pn2.org> (permalink) |
| References | (11 earlier) <v4ava2$1apao$2@dont-email.me> <v4b1l7$3nf9m$9@i2pn2.org> <v4b40r$1f89t$2@dont-email.me> <v4c12n$3oop0$1@i2pn2.org> <v4c6e9$1lec5$2@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 6/12/24 9:05 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/12/2024 6:33 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/11/24 11:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2024 9:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/11/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/11/2024 8:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/11/24 12:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/11/2024 2:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-10 14:43:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those laws do not constrain formal systems. Each formal system
>>>>>>>> specifies
>>>>>>>> its own laws, which include all or some or none of those.
>>>>>>>> Besides, a the
>>>>>>>> word "proposition" need not be and often is not used in the
>>>>>>>> specification
>>>>>>>> of a formal system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *This is the way that truth actually works*
>>>>>>> *People are free to disagree and simply be wrong*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, YOU are simply wrong, because you don't understand how big
>>>>>> logic actualy is, because, it seems, your mind is to small.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every expression of language X that is
>>>>> {true on the basis of its meaning}
>>>>> algorithmically requires a possibly infinite sequence of
>>>>> finite string transformation rules from its meaning to X.
>>>>
>>>> Unless it is just true as its nature.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Which Mendelson would encode as: ⊢𝒞
>>> A {cat} <is defined as a type of> {animal}.
>>
>> So, what is that statements truth-maker?
>>
>> And the truth-maker of that?
>>
>> You need a set of "first truth-makers" that do not themselves have
>> something more fundamental at their truth-makers.
>
> I have always had that and told you about it dozens of times.
> Some otherwise meaningless finite strings are stipulated to be
> true thus providing these finite strings with meaning.
> https://liarparadox.org/Meaning_Postulates_Rudolf_Carnap_1952.pdf
> Bachelor(x) <entails> ~Married(x)
But that doesn't fit your defintion of a Truth having a truth maker.
>
> If there really is nothing anywhere that makes expression
> of language X true then X is untrue.
>
> This covers every truth that can possibly exist, true by
> definition, true by entailment, true by observation, true
> by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
> If nothing makes X true then X is untrue.
So a "true by definition" or "stipulated truth" needs a truth maker.
What makes that definition or stuplation "true", what is its truth-maker?
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic
>>>>>>> answer is
>>>>>>> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But logic systems don't necessaily deal with "expressions of
>>>>>> language" in the sense you seem to be thinking of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finite strings are the most generic form of "expressions of language"
>>>>
>>>> And not all things are finite strings.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every expression of language that is {true on the basis of its meaning}
>>> is a finite string that is connected to the expressions of language that
>>> express its meaning.
>>
>> And that just gets you into circles,
>
> A tree of knowledge has no cycles. Willard Van Orman Quine
> was too stupid to see this.
> https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html
And then what is at is root? Show me a word that can be "defined"
without using any other words.
>
>> as the expression of language that expresses its meaning needs a
>> truth-maker too, and that need one for it, and so one.
>>
>
> Some expressions of language are stipulated to be true
> thus giving them meaning. Rudolf Carnap may have been
> the first to formalize this with his meaning Postulates.
But what gives the meaning to the stipulation?
A stipulation is just a piece of language, what gives it meaning other
than the words it uses, which need definitions.
>
> https://liarparadox.org/Meaning_Postulates_Rudolf_Carnap_1952.pdf
> Bachelor(x) <entails> ~Married(x)
>
>> You need a primative base that is accepted without proof, as there is
>> nothing to prove it, and that base defines the logic system you are
>> going to work in.
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This entails that if there is nothing in the universe that makes
>>>>>>> expression X true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless it just is true because it is a truthmaker by definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is more than nothing in the universe.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> but what makes the definition "true"? What is its truth-maker?
>>>>
>>>> Not everything has a truth-maker, because it might be a truth-maker
>>>> itself.
>>>
>>> Basic facts are stipulated to be true.
>>> "A cat is an animal" is the same basic fact expressed
>>> in every human language and their mathematically
>>> formalized versions.
>>>
>>
>> So, basic facts do not have a truth-maker in their universe.
>
> True by definition is their truthmaker.
Not by your definition.
>
>>
>> But "A cat is an animal" is NOT a statement that is true in every
>> system, as some systems might not HAVE a concept of "cat" in it at
>> all, so that would be a non-sense expression, or might even define it
>> to be something else.
>>
>
> *That has already been covered by this*
> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic answer is
> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>
> This entails that if there is nothing in the universe that makes
> expression X true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
But what them makes the truthmaker true? You said there were no cycles.
>
>> YOu still keep on running into the problem that youu mind clearly
>> doesn't understand that expresability of logic, and you are stuck just
>> not understanding how abstractions work.
>
> Not at all. The problem is that you have not yet paid
> 100% complete attention to ALL of my words.
>
so, what makes the truthmakers true?
If they make themselves true, then you have a cycle, which you said you
didn't.
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Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 10:36 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:18 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:13 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:29 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:54 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 15:36 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 21:47 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 22:56 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 22:12 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 07:16 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 11:09 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 23:32 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 12:30 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 19:22 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:43 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:34 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 21:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 23:01 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:20 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 10:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:49 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 19:44 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 20:57 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:37 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:21 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:42 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:15 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:51 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 23:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 07:30 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 08:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 22:45 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 22:50 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 07:39 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 08:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-10 10:19 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 09:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-11 10:57 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 23:00 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-10 10:13 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 09:43 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-11 10:45 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 11:06 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:57 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:37 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 08:05 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:55 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:16 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:48 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 10:13 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 07:44 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 16:41 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 09:08 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-12 19:45 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 12:00 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-13 09:17 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 07:21 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-13 18:40 +0300
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 11:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 22:48 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-09 17:40 +0000
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:10 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:31 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:48 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:57 -0400
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