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Groups > comp.theory > #106390
| From | olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 |
| Date | 2024-06-06 08:04 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <v3sc4q$1gra7$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <v3kj9m$3u4o3$1@dont-email.me> <v3l0sq$5d3$3@dont-email.me> <v3p2nf$s7to$1@dont-email.me> <v3pnq7$v133$4@dont-email.me> <v3rqoq$1e1lg$1@dont-email.me> |
On 6/6/2024 3:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-06-05 13:05:11 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 6/5/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-03 18:09:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/3/2024 9:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-06-03 12:25:48 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/3/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-06-02 14:50:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/2/2024 4:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 03.mei.2024 om 15:40 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x) // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>> 04 if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>> 05 HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>> 11 H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are examining the behavior of D(D) for every possible H/D pair
>>>>>>>>>> where 1 to N steps of D(D) are simulated by H.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Execution Trace*
>>>>>>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D) that simulates D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted)
>>>>>>>>>> Line 01
>>>>>>>>>> Line 02
>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that
>>>>>>>>>> simulates D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Simulation invariant*
>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own
>>>>>>>>>> line 03.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Linz proof is based on the pathological relation ship that
>>>>>>>>> D contradicts the result of H. This is expressed in lines 04,
>>>>>>>>> 05, 06 of D, above.
>>>>>>>>> It is strange that olcott claims that the simulation never sees
>>>>>>>>> the pathological part of D. He now seems to shift the meaning
>>>>>>>>> of pathological to the mere fact that D calls H. Lines 04, 05,
>>>>>>>>> and 06 are completely irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>> In fact, any function that calls H now become pathological.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E.G. if we replace D with a function P that only returns its
>>>>>>>>> own Halt_Status:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 01 int P(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>> 04
>>>>>>>>> 05
>>>>>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then we would normally expect that, because H is required to
>>>>>>>>> halt, P would halt as well. But the simulation of P by H does
>>>>>>>>> not halt. So, P, when it halts, reports that it not halting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem here is, that H is unable to simulate itself to its
>>>>>>>>> final state. That has no relation with the Linz proof, it is a
>>>>>>>>> problem of H.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, there is another *Simulation invariant*
>>>>>>>>> H correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own return.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Already addressed in another reply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which reply? The one where you said you made a mistake? Or typo?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not going to answer the same question from multiple people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your choice. But you can't keep multiple people from seeing your
>>>>> lack of answer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is my canned reply that no one has attempted to refute because
>>>> they know it is irrefutable. When we are analyzing x86 code and
>>>> someone disagrees that is like disagreeing that 2 + 3 = 5.
>>>
>>> The code has been anylzed by several people so carefully that
>>> any disagreement really is like s like disagreeing that 2 + 3 = 5.
>>> But you disagree anyway:
>>>
>>
>> It has been "analyzed" by dogmatic assertions utterly bereft
>> of any supporting reasoning.
>
> So it has, at least by you.
>
>> It is empirically proven that the behavior of the directly executed
>> DD(DD) is different than the behavior of DD correctly simulated by
>> HH.
>
> Empirical observations are not an analysis.
Try any show how this DD can be correctly simulated by any HH
such that this DD reaches past its machine address [00001dbe]
_DD()
[00001e12] 55 push ebp
[00001e13] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001e15] 51 push ecx
[00001e16] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001e19] 50 push eax ; push DD
[00001e1a] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00001e1d] 51 push ecx ; push DD
[00001e1e] e85ff5ffff call 00001382 ; call HH
> They do not prove about
> the same as an analysis so cannot contradict. Any demonstration of
> any relation between the two requires a careful comparison the details
> of each, for example whether the HH in the empirical proof is similar
> enough to H in the analysis.
>
>> People can lie about this yet cannot possibly show otherwise.
>
> That is the restriction of some people, for example you. But some have
> shown otherwise. They needn't to show it to you but for someone not yet
> familiar with the topic those demonstrations can be useful.
>
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
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D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 08:40 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-03 17:53 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:32 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-04 08:55 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:42 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 18:55 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-04 08:56 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-03 23:11 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 19:13 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-03 23:24 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 22:39 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-04 08:59 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-02 11:50 +0200
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-02 09:50 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 10:39 +0300
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 07:25 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 17:17 +0300
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 13:09 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-03 21:47 +0200
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-03 20:56 -0400
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-04 08:19 +0000
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 12:30 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-05 10:05 +0300
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-05 08:05 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-05 18:07 +0000
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-06 11:07 +0300
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-06 08:04 -0500
Re: D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 immibis <news2@immibis.com> - 2024-06-07 16:25 +0200
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