Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?

From	Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?
Date	2017-09-08 04:30 +0200
Message-ID	<unhdn-A0-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<ulll8-6lO-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <umABr-4JW-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <umBQR-5RB-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	Sirius Cybernetics

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On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 16:19:03 +1000
Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> wrote:

> Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> writes:
> 
> > I don't want to provoke any religious war here, and sorry if I offend
> > anybody, but:
> 
> That doesn't alter the fact that you've disparaged programs in terms
> that state an absolute problem inherent to the program. This is not
> helpful, because it implies that people who choose those programs are
> wrong and should be disparaged themselves.

I do disparage software when it seems ungood, but there is no implication from me that people who use that software are in any way to be disparaged - there may be many reasons why they're using that software, and my (possibly mistaken) opinion may even help them realise they have choices they didn't know about.  We all have to start learning somewhere - and it never ends.

> 
> For example:
> 
> > emacs is ridiculously heavy-weight
> 
> That's an absolute statement of objective fact. 

I realise I should have scattered IM(H)Os all through my email, so lets start now: IMO it *is* an objective fact.  emacs is *huge* (please don't ask me for numbers) and cumbersome and overengineered if what you want is a lightweight lean fast straightforward text editor (and I usually do).  The wags didn't coin the joke about the name deriving from Eventually Mallocs All Computer System for nothing :)

> Do you think it is true for everyone? You have
> expressed it as though you do.

I don't think it *bothers* everyone, no.  People's use-cases differ.

> You are, in this expression, saying that people who 
> use Emacs deserve ridicule

Not in the slightest - it's horses for courses.  I'm stating *my* opinion about the software, and nothing about its users at all.

[...] 
> > vi's power makes light work of many tasks but it's as user-friendly as
> > a cornered rat ... novices usually remember their first time trying to
> > find out how to exit with a genuine shudder.
> 
> This gets too far into stating objective fact. How do you know the
> "usual" experience of novice Vi users, have you surveyed a statistically
> powerful sample?

No doubt my sample isn't an industry-wide statistically valid sample, but it's based on many many editor conversations with many programmer colleagues in the course of working for a number of large companies.  IME, programmers who arrive in the Unix world from other system types are often appalled at the primitive state of the user interface of many of the tools Unix provides (sendmail ...). Note that this is not to decry the many wonders of Unix, or more particularly Linux (which is a far superior animal to all of the commercial Unixen with which I have worked).

> I appreciate that it can be fun to rant about difficulties using
> programs, and Emacs and Vi are favourite topics of this sort. 

It sure is :)

> We can, and should, do so without also dismissing 
> other people as inferior.

Once again, and to emphasise: I said (and intended) nothing about the users of any software.

> When you acknowledge the possibility of provoking offense, 
> it is on your shoulders to either express yourself in ways
> that *don't* implicitly disparage people with different 
> preferences.

I'll allow that I should have prefixed everything I said with IMO.  There's no way to criticise an editor which doesn't risk offending some fans of said editor - the preemptive apology is the best I can do to avert that.  Luckily, most conversations about software quality that I've had with colleagues have been purely on a technical basis and have remained dispassionate, even when using metaphors like 'cornered rat'.  I remember an operating system whose response to commands was only ever 'OK' or 'ER' .... I don't like to tell you what I thought about that, but some people liked it because it didn't waste their time with verbiage.

Cheers
Nick
-- 
Never FDISK after midnight.

Thread

Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:40 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 21:10 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-09-02 22:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 22:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-02 23:10 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2017-09-03 03:00 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-03 03:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? davidson@freevolt.org - 2017-09-03 00:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 02:50 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-03 03:00 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 03:20 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-09-03 08:20 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 16:00 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 13:40 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> - 2017-09-03 17:40 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 17:50 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-03 18:10 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-03 03:40 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> - 2017-09-03 18:10 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:30 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:40 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-09-02 21:10 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? solitone <solitone@mail.com> - 2017-09-03 20:50 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-09-03 21:10 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 21:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-03 21:50 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? solitone <solitone@mail.com> - 2017-09-04 15:50 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-09-02 21:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? davidson@freevolt.org - 2017-09-03 00:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-09-03 04:30 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2017-09-04 17:50 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 23:30 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-09-04 23:40 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? soyeomul@doraji.xyz (Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희, 黃炳熙)) - 2017-09-03 12:10 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 13:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-09-03 20:50 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz> - 2017-09-03 23:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-04 01:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Morten Bo Johansen <mbj@spamcop.net> - 2017-09-04 18:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? kamaraju kusumanchi <raju.mailinglists@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 06:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-06 07:00 +0200
    Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-09-06 08:10 +0200
      Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice  programmers?] Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-08 04:20 +0200
        Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice  programmers?] Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-08 09:40 +0200
        Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 23:20 +0200
          Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-10 06:00 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 08:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-09-06 10:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-09-06 15:10 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it> - 2017-09-06 15:10 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-09-06 17:30 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-08 04:30 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 23:20 +0200
          top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-08 23:50 +0200
            Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for  novice programmers?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-09 02:10 +0200
              Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-09 13:50 +0200
                Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for  novice programmers?) Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-10 05:00 +0200
                Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-10 14:00 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-10 05:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it> - 2017-09-06 11:00 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Johann Spies <johann.spies@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 11:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 20:20 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gary Roach <gary719_list1@verizon.net> - 2017-09-07 01:10 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2017-09-09 02:40 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-09-09 18:30 +0200

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