Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?

From	Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?
Date	2017-09-03 03:20 +0200
Message-ID	<ulrJT-1Ol-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 02-09-17, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 02, 2017 06:46:33 PM davidson@freevolt.org wrote:
> > On Sat, 2 Sep 2017, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > On 02/09/17 13:34, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > >> You can set up both Vim and Emacs as powerful programming editors.
> > > 
> > > These are the *worst* possible suggestions. Both of these editors
> > > require a lot of learning to even use them at all. If the OP follows
> > > your advice, his users will have the impression that all software in
> > > GNU/Linux is as arcane and difficult to use as GNU Emacs and Vim
> > > are.
> > 
> > I somehow doubt that you yourself find Emacs or Vim "difficult to
> > use", or believe their design is "arcane". (Of course, I might well be
> > mistaken. I'm only guessing.)
> > 
> > My contrary view, for whatever it might be worth: In the early weeks
> > of my own initiation to a unix-like operating system, we used
> > Emacs. Accompanied by a cheat-sheet of commonly useful keyboard
> > shortcuts, I found that learning the basics of Emacs in particular,
> > and navigating the self-contained documentation, was an eye-opening
> > introduction to the unix-like world and its universe of reliable
> > tools.
> > 
> > When, many years later, I developed a greater interest in computers, I
> > was happy to discover that
> > 
> >    1. I hadn't been taught only how to ride a tricycle, but had been
> >    riding a full-fledged bicycle all along, and
> > 
> >    2. I would never need to learn to use another text-editor again, if
> >    I didn't want to do so.
> 
> I "grew up" using editors (of a sort) (or card punches) (or teletype machines) 
> on a variety of other OSs (IBM 360, Univac 1108, PDP-8, -11 (and one other) 
> VAX, Foxboro, Westinghouse, (not in sequential order), and eventually DOS, 
> Windows, and Linux.  I didn't encounter Vim or Emacs until I got to Linux.  By 
> then I was very used to GUI editors, a vast improvement over things I had used 
> before.
> 
> I made more than one attempt to learn both, and I do occasionally use vi (when 
> I'm stuck with no other editor), but I wouldn't wish either on a novice 
> programmer.  Further, I don't think they have any advantage over a good GUI 
> editor with features like a scripting language, keyboard macros, outlining / 
> folding, syntax highlighting, and such.
> 

Actually, they do have advantage, plus all those things that you've
mentioned. Their advantage is in the speed of moving around. Plus tones
of extensions, scripts, addons that exist for them. If you search around
for best programming editor, most searches will return vim. Sure, that
does not mean it is best for you. But it is certainly not bad
recommendation. Nor is Emacs. They are about same. But both have
downside. Best downside of Vim I've found would be this:

"Once you're used to it, you won't like other editors

When your fingers have learned Vim's keyboard commands, you'll find
yourself reaching for them even when using other text editors. You'll
get frustrated every time you have to reach for the mouse or move your
cursor letter by letter with the arrow keys. You'll notice every time a
Vim feature would save you time and tedium, and you'll wish the editor
you're actually using had it. You'll wish the editor was Vim. You'll
wish everything was Vim. You'll wish this imperfect world we live in
could somehow become just a little bit more graceful, a little bit more
elegant, by adopting modal text editing as a common paradigm. You'll
wish desperately that this world was that better one. But it isn't. It
isn't. And it never will be.:wq"

Best downside of Emacs would be that once you really start working in
it, you can start living in it. Best upside of Emacs is that it has evil
mode.

Thread

Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:40 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 21:10 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-09-02 22:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 22:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-02 23:10 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2017-09-03 03:00 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-03 03:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? davidson@freevolt.org - 2017-09-03 00:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 02:50 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-03 03:00 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 03:20 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-09-03 08:20 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 16:00 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 13:40 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> - 2017-09-03 17:40 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 17:50 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-03 18:10 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-03 03:40 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> - 2017-09-03 18:10 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-09-02 20:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:30 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:40 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-09-02 21:10 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? solitone <solitone@mail.com> - 2017-09-03 20:50 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-09-03 21:10 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 21:40 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-09-03 21:50 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? solitone <solitone@mail.com> - 2017-09-04 15:50 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-09-02 21:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? davidson@freevolt.org - 2017-09-03 00:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-09-03 04:30 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2017-09-04 17:50 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 23:30 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-09-04 23:40 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? soyeomul@doraji.xyz (Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희, 黃炳熙)) - 2017-09-03 12:10 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 13:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-09-03 20:50 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz> - 2017-09-03 23:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-04 01:30 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Morten Bo Johansen <mbj@spamcop.net> - 2017-09-04 18:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? kamaraju kusumanchi <raju.mailinglists@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 06:00 +0200
  Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-06 07:00 +0200
    Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-09-06 08:10 +0200
      Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice  programmers?] Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-08 04:20 +0200
        Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice  programmers?] Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-08 09:40 +0200
        Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 23:20 +0200
          Re: Editor survival [Was: Recommended editor for novice programmers?] Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-10 06:00 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 08:20 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-09-06 10:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-09-06 15:10 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it> - 2017-09-06 15:10 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-09-06 17:30 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-08 04:30 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 23:20 +0200
          top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-08 23:50 +0200
            Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for  novice programmers?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-09-09 02:10 +0200
              Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-09 13:50 +0200
                Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for  novice programmers?) Nick Boyce <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-09-10 05:00 +0200
                Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-09-10 14:00 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-10 05:50 +0200
    Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it> - 2017-09-06 11:00 +0200
      Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Johann Spies <johann.spies@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 11:20 +0200
        Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 20:20 +0200
          Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Gary Roach <gary719_list1@verizon.net> - 2017-09-07 01:10 +0200
            Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2017-09-09 02:40 +0200
              Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-09-09 18:30 +0200

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