Re: One-line password generator

From	"Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: One-line password generator
Date	2017-08-30 23:00 +0200
Message-ID	<ukifD-4I6-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<ukfB9-3fk-43@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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Hi,

Brian wrote:
> the crackers would likely not be in possession of a leaked password
> (Uld4dFpYSkdkV1J3ZFdOclpYSUsK) but of a hash of it.

That's why i did not claim to be able to decipher such things but rather
mentioned that the name is celebrity enough to be quickly enumerated.
The next two secrets were: base64 once, which is rather normal, and then
another base64 which would be guessable by a list of obvious obfuscation
opportunities.
Together this would be vulnerable to self-learning attacks which follow
the habits and typical ideas of certain groups of people.

> The password does not contain any memorable words so word lists do not
> look an inviting prospect.

This is not the decisive point. The list with celebrity names is input to
the not extremely unlikely operation of double base64. After this chain
of processing, you have a string that looks garbled, but is still based
only on the thin secrets.

> With the much slower bcrypt the effort to crack anything more might
> have been too much.

More bits and a more complex algorithm make testing slower, indeed.
The mathematical bet is that there are no shortcuts to the slowliness.

A secret salt (or other encryption key) may help if it can be kept
completely separate from the hash list, so that the attacker needs
two separate thefts.
But from
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bcrypt
i understand the salt is stored unencrypted in the shadow password.

So only the extra bits of the result and the hopefully reliable
artificial slowliness of the algorithm can be counted as advantage
over MD5.

> Gene Heskett's password does not have all the criteria for being complex
> and completely random, but for now it looks like it would escape
> unscathed from brute force probing.

If the attacker has a bcrypt shadow password then the same number of
enumeration tries is necessary as with MD5. But it lasts linearly longer
to test them.

The linear factor depends on the "cost" parameter of the bcrypted password.
In the wikipedia example it is 1024 times the cost of a single bcrypt
round divided by the cost of a MD5 computation.
I failed up to now with finding an estimation of this fundamental ratio.

bcrypt seems to have indeed a good reputation.
But google finds "Argon2" when i ask for "bcrypt successor".

> Suppose
>  echo "ElmerFudpucker" | base64 | base64
> became
> echo "ElmerFudpucker" | <some_bcrypt_processing> | base64 | base64

The latter is less secret than

  echo "ElmerFudpucker" | base64 | base64 | <some_bcrypt_processing>

because as you could see with Gene's challenge, an unobfuscated base64
string is an invitation to run base64 -d.
If the last step in the chain is bcrypt, then i have to guess about
  base64 | base64
  md5sum | base64
  sha512sum | base64
  md5sum | xxd
  ...
  as many as Gene or i can imagine (but not many enough)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever, it seems to me that you can really create extra security on your
local side if you put that slow thing into the enumeration chain.
Even assumed that your attacker knows it, he still has the problem that
bcrypt weights on the enumeration regardless how poor the remote hash
obfuscation is. (It must not be so poor that a collision easily lets him in
although he tried a wrong password.)

A very good property is that the whole bcryptization does not have to
be secret and thus you may store its lengthy parameters in unsecure places.

You will not use more than the hash part of bcrypt as password. No need
to send "cost" or "salt" to the remote service.
Assume that everybody knows them and thus you don't need to tell. :))

But still your brain password needs to be strong enough to become really
strong by the added bits equivalent of bcrypt slowliness. If in the time
of one bcrypt try one could do 4096 MD5s, then this bcrypt is worth 12 bits
of secret, compared to MD5 and in the context of enumeration.
The rest of hard-to-guess bits must be stored in your brain.

I wonder whether one can arbitrarily increase the computation time
by arbitrary high cost value without creating opportunities for a shortcut.
Somehow this smells like information out of deterministic nothing ...
... the 184 bit hash must produce collisions after at most 2 exp 184
tries. So a wrong brain password would yield the right long password.
This is a trivial upper bit count limit for what bcrypt can gain you.
Probably the real systematic limit is lower. Young mathematicians needed.

In any case you would buy a new bit by doubling password computation time
for each time you want to use the password. So there are real world limits
much lower than the bit count of the hash.

The ratio of the attacker's computing power and your computing power matters.
This is a disadvantage compared to other methods which harden against
enumeration.

Disclaimer: This looks quite good to me but might be wrong, nevertheless.
            All depends on whether bcrypt really has the properties which
            are intended. Not to speak of my questionable conclusions
            or of any non-enumeration strategies.

Gene Heskett wrote:
> Theodore T'so opinion IMO, carry's enough weight to more than "balance 
> the scales" in most any argument about this...  Theodore was smack in 
> the middle of TPTB 

It is astounding how many people can tell such things about him.
We all trust him daily, because you can hardly avoid to use his work
if you run GNU/Linux.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Thread

One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 17:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-22 21:50 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-22 22:10 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-08-22 22:50 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-08-23 14:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:30 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 22:40 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 00:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Lck Ras <likcoras@riseup.net> - 2017-08-23 02:30 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 19:20 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Lck Ras <likcoras@riseup.net> - 2017-08-24 03:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-23 17:20 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 19:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-23 20:00 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-24 01:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-24 19:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 03:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-25 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 11:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 15:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 16:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 18:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 20:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 20:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 21:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 20:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-08-23 14:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2017-08-23 03:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2017-08-23 06:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Aaron Toponce <aaron.toponce@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 21:20 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-23 21:30 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Aaron Toponce <aaron.toponce@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 21:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-23 22:50 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Terence <terence.john@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 23:40 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-26 20:30 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-26 20:40 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-26 21:10 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-26 21:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 17:10 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-27 20:10 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 20:10 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 21:10 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-28 00:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-28 11:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 12:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-28 13:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 15:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 04:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 09:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 11:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 12:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 13:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 14:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-30 03:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 12:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-29 14:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 15:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-30 03:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-30 14:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 14:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 15:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 15:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 15:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 16:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-30 16:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 18:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 16:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 20:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 23:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 10:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-30 16:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 17:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-30 20:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 11:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 21:20 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-29 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-29 21:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-29 22:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 23:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-30 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 12:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-30 00:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-31 21:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-31 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-31 21:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-27 04:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-27 16:40 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-01 17:00 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-01 21:50 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 23:50 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-02 11:50 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-02 13:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-02 19:20 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-02 20:30 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-02 21:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-02 22:00 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 01:50 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 01:50 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 04:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 05:40 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 16:40 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-04 01:10 +0200

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