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Re: One-line password generator

From "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: One-line password generator
Date 2017-08-29 14:30 +0200
Message-ID <ujNOy-2zB-9@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <ujMps-1Ae-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

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Hi,

now it's not about information technology any more but about math and the
difficulty to properly discuss a mathematical opinion.


Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Which myth?

The one denounced by Thomas Huehn's article. Saying that /dev/random
gets fed directly from the entropy pool:
  https://www.2uo.de/myths-about-urandom/structure-no.png


Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > I should have wrote "/dev/random should be treated as though it is
> > > the input feed to /dev/urandom" (sorry about that).

I wrote:
> > But that it isn't. The myth model says that it would be.

> I can't see the myth in my words that you say is debunked

The word "myth" refers to the topic and title the article, not to your words.

I apologize for any implied belittleing of your arguments. It was not
intentional.


> Exactly which part of my sentence above, do you say contradicts what
> you say just here?

The part that /dev/urandom is equivalent to stemming from /dev/random.
They are more or less siblings, according to Thomas Huehn and Andy Smith.


> > not a strongly obfuscated but still diluted result.

> Yes, your naivety shines through.

I am not alone with that

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator
  "A CSPRNG can "stretch" the available entropy over more bits."

(The authors of that page throw much more math terms than have been
 in this thread yet. Whether this makes them more credible stays undecided.)

Maybe the answer by Jalai in
  https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/1740/stretching-a-random-seed-to-maximize-entropy
points out a lower limit for the loss of entropy by exploiting the key
of a cipher.
Maybe it's a red herring. 


> This is not the place to gain a deep understanding of
> cryptographically secure random numbers

You tell me that if i read 1024 bytes from a not very secret stream that
was encrypted with a secret 384 bit key i get 1024 bytes of entropy ?

I'd like to read the proof for this.


> If you want to comprehend the significance of your naivety, find the
> number of molecules in the universe,

What does this have to do with the question whether N bits of information
can give birth to more than N bits of information ?


> you're going down completely non-productive rabbit holes,

I would like to know how one can be so sure that the holes are not
productive.


> without spending the necessary effort to learn about the maths,

Oh. It's not the math. It's the jumps in the argumentation and the
lack of proof for strong statements.
I can be convinced. Just give me links to convincing texts.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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Thread

One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 17:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-22 21:50 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-22 22:10 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-08-22 22:50 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-08-23 14:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-22 22:30 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 22:40 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 00:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Lck Ras <likcoras@riseup.net> - 2017-08-23 02:30 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 19:20 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Lck Ras <likcoras@riseup.net> - 2017-08-24 03:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-23 17:20 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 19:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-23 20:00 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-23 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-24 01:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-24 19:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 03:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-25 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 11:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 15:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 16:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 18:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 20:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-25 20:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 21:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 20:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-25 19:20 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2017-08-22 22:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-08-23 14:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2017-08-23 03:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2017-08-23 06:10 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Aaron Toponce <aaron.toponce@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 21:20 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-23 21:30 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Aaron Toponce <aaron.toponce@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 21:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-23 22:50 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Terence <terence.john@gmail.com> - 2017-08-23 23:40 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-26 20:30 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-26 20:40 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-26 21:10 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-26 21:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 17:10 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-27 20:10 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 20:10 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 21:10 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-28 00:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-28 11:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 12:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-28 13:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-28 15:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 04:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 09:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 11:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 12:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 13:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 14:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-30 03:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 12:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-08-29 14:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 15:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-30 03:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-30 14:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 14:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 15:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 15:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 15:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 16:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-30 16:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 18:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 16:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-30 20:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 23:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 10:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-30 16:30 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 17:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-30 20:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-29 11:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-27 21:20 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-29 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-29 21:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-29 22:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-29 23:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-30 10:50 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-08-30 12:40 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-30 00:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-31 21:10 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-31 21:20 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-08-31 21:40 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-27 04:20 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-27 16:00 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-08-27 16:40 +0200
  Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-01 17:00 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-01 21:50 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-01 23:50 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-02 11:50 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-02 13:00 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-02 19:20 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-09-02 20:30 +0200
              Re: One-line password generator "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-09-02 21:00 +0200
                Re: One-line password generator Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-02 22:00 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 01:50 +0200
    Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 01:50 +0200
      Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 04:40 +0200
        Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-02 05:40 +0200
          Re: One-line password generator Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2017-09-02 16:40 +0200
            Re: One-line password generator Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-09-04 01:10 +0200

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