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Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

From Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.project
Subject Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?
Date 2017-08-12 10:00 +0200
Message-ID <udzuV-6cl-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <udgVl-3mP-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <udq8h-la-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <udy5P-5u8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <udyyR-5DC-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <udzbA-65P-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
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 ❦ 12 août 2017 07:37 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> :

>> > That is a disservice to our users.  While for many users this is true, those
>> > users will have contrib (and probably non-free) enabled in their sources.list.
>> > So moving the package to contrib doesn't change anything for them.  The only
>> > people who see a difference are the ones who asked not to see this kind of
>> > software, and they will no longer see it.  That is a great outcome, not
>> > something to get upset about.
>> 
>> By default, contrib and non-free repositories are not enabled. They are
>> also unsupported from the security team. They are not part of
>> Debian. They are an additional service provided to users requesting it
>> specifically.
>
> Your argument seems to be:
>
> Debian cares about free software.
> Therefore, Debian does not enable contrib and non-free by default.
> Therefore, users may not see non-free related software.  This is a problem.
> Let's fix it by pushing that software into main anyway.

No, _your_ argument is that contrib and non-free are part of Debian and
are just a fine recipient for random software. I just emphasize the fact
they are not part of Debian.

My argument is that services are not software. Free software depending
on non-free services (something we don't define in Debian) should be in
main. Like they always have been.

> In other words: We care about free software, therefore we should put non-free
> (related) software in main.  What?

Strawman argument. Please, refrain from that.

> If you believe it is a problem that our users don't have access to the software
> in contrib by default, then propose to fix that.  The obvious way to do that
> would be by enabling contrib by default, not by moving software that belongs in
> contrib into main.

Contrib cannot be enabled by default, it is not part of Debian. It's an
additional service using Debian infrastructure. Policy is quite clear
about that.

And honestly, I don't have to do a thing. Nothing will change. Free
software using "non-free services" will stay in main because they meet
the proper requirements (policy 2.2.1).

>> Debian is about free software. There is nothing in DFSG about "free
>> services". How do you know if a service is implemented with free
>> software or not? Amazon S3 could be free software, but only distributed
>> internally at Amazon.
>
> They can be, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.  There is no question
> that the client is free software.  If the server is not packaged in main, that
> means this free client software belongs in contrib.  Whether that is because it
> is non-free or for some other reason does not matter.  That is, unless you are
> claiming that their service is not "software".  Are you?

Yes, I am! They are services. Even the FSF acknowledges they are
different. They have created the AGPL for that.
-- 
O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.
		-- Sir Walter Scott, "Marmion"

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Thread

Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2017-08-05 02:10 +0200
  Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-08-05 15:50 +0200
    Re: Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial  service "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <bas@wijnen.dtdns.net> - 2017-08-06 09:30 +0200
    Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2017-08-06 17:30 +0200
  Bug#856139: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-06 14:20 +0200
    Bug#856139: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> - 2017-08-06 14:40 +0200
    Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-07 20:20 +0200
      Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-07 21:00 +0200
        Debian packages advertising non-free services (was: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service) Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-08-08 01:40 +0200
          Re: Debian packages advertising non-free services Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-08 07:40 +0200
            Re: Debian packages advertising non-free services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-08-08 07:50 +0200
              Re: Debian packages advertising non-free services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2017-08-08 09:00 +0200
              Re: Debian packages advertising non-free services Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-08-08 10:10 +0200
            Re: Debian packages advertising non-free services Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-08-08 08:20 +0200
      Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2017-08-08 05:50 +0200
        Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2017-08-11 14:10 +0200
          Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2017-08-11 17:00 +0200
          Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service Faidon Liambotis <paravoid@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 00:00 +0200
            Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial  service Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2017-08-12 05:50 +0200
            Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 08:30 +0200
              Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 09:00 +0200
                Are online services also software for Debian's rules? "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 09:40 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 10:00 +0200
              Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-12 10:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 11:20 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 12:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 17:20 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-13 22:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2017-08-13 23:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 02:30 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 02:30 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 14:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-08-14 15:00 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 15:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2017-08-14 19:40 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 19:50 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-12 12:10 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-08-12 16:00 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-12 16:20 +0200
                Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules? Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-08-12 16:50 +0200
                win32-loader (was: Re: Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises commercial service) Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 17:00 +0200
              Re: [pkg-go] Bug#856139: certspotter: long description advertises  commercial service Tobias Frost <tobi@debian.org> - 2017-08-12 17:40 +0200

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