Re: Replace systemd

From	The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Replace systemd
Date	2017-07-06 05:20 +0200
Message-ID	<u05uF-70D-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 2017-07-05 at 12:44, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 12:11:27PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>> I suspect that what the people who ask for this are thinking of is
>> a step in the installer sequence at which you are prompted to
>> choose which init system you want to be installed, such that the
>> installer will never even attempt to install any other init
>> system.
> 
> Yes, yes, we know.  But they're not going to GET this, so we are
> giving them alternative ways to accomplish their goals.

And that's fair enough, but it's very different from what Don pointed to
in saying that this "already exists".

> I use fvwm, but you don't hear me asking for the debian-installer
> team to add a user interface option to let me install fvwm.  This is
> because I'm in a *small minority* of users, and it's not worth their
> time to build a user interface option that only a small minority of
> users are going to care about, especially when I can achieve the same
> goal by running a simple apt-get command after the install.

One difference there is that there *is* an option to install Debian with
*no* WM, DE, or similar, and only install whichever one you choose later on.

Since it is not even conceptually possible to install Debian with no
init system at all (even if an option to do so existed, what would it
*do* in practice?), having there be an option to select which of the
available init systems should be installed - rather than having to let
the system install one, then clean it up later on if that one is not the
one you wanted - can seem like the solution least biased in favor of any
particular init system.

(Imagine if you didn't have the option to install just the "base"
system, with no graphical interface, and had to install with a
pre-chosen default - GNOME,or KDE, or IceWM, or whatever you care to
name - and then remove that later in order to get fvwm in place. Sure,
you could still *do* it, but wouldn't it seem just as reasonable to ask
for an install-time option? Particularly if there were only a tiny
handful of WMs, etc., available, rather than the proliferation which
actually exist.)

> Likewise, people who prefer sysvinit are a small minority, and they
> can achieve their goal by running a simple apt-get command after the
> install. There is no need to rewrite a complex user interface to
> accomodate this.

I think I disagree with one of the underlying principles of this
viewpoint, but I can't quite identify what that principle is at the
moment, and I kind of want to get to bed right now.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

Thread

Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200
  Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:10 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:30 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Jason Wittlin-Cohen <jwittlincohen@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 02:30 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-07-04 07:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 20:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 00:30 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 01:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-07-05 03:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 14:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:30 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2017-07-05 10:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 10:30 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 17:40 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
  Re: Replace systemd Jim Ohlstein <jim@mailman-hosting.com> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 07:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com> - 2017-07-05 16:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 16:40 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 23:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:00 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd chris <tknchris@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 00:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:30 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 06:30 +0200
  Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-03 23:10 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 15:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 16:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                Re: Re: Replace systemd Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-07-07 05:40 +0200
                Re: Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 07:10 +0200
  Re: Replace systemd Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-07-03 23:40 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-05 01:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:40 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 12:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 22:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 00:50 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-07 16:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 18:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 23:40 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:30 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 17:50 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-05 18:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-05 19:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 05:20 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-06 14:30 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-06 16:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 15:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 11:40 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 05:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 07:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2017-07-06 08:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 10:30 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
          And the UNasked questions are? - was [Re: Replace systemd] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-07-06 11:50 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-07-09 13:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-07-09 15:30 +0200

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