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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #86072

Re: To C or not to C++

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: To C or not to C++
Date 2022-08-25 20:35 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <te8fea$3n8bn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (17 earlier) <87a67sy5u2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <392fc8fe-b516-434c-8962-c11e2154f4c6n@googlegroups.com> <87y1vcwo4q.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <6aeee22b-9030-481e-86cb-4a47c6746f0bn@googlegroups.com> <871qt4wb6l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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On 25/08/2022 18:16, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 12:37:11 UTC+1, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 11:29:26 UTC+1, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.s...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24 Aug 2022 22:48, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> C23 will make bool, false, and true keywords.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n3047.pdf
>>>>>>> I didn't know that, but I am not surprised because of the new course C
>>>>>>> is taking. I hope it does not run aground...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's apparently the same as with C++: not very practical academics in
>>>>>> charge,
>>>>> Who, in particular, do you mean?
>>>>>

A large proportion of the new features in C23 seem to have originated 
with or been promoted by one person - Jens Gustedt.  I don't know if he 
should be considered an "academic", or a "practical programmer", or 
both, or neither.  But while most of the C standards committee tend to 
be quite anonymous and avoid making changes to the standard (they all 
have day jobs, after all), he seems to be working hard to change C and 
bring it forward.  People can have different opinions on whether that's 
a good idea or not, and about the particular changes he has proposed, 
but I think he is due a large share of the credit for C23.

>> Computer science people would tend to think that it's important to have
>> a boolean type, because a lot of logic works on values which are inherently
>> true or false.
> 

When I did theoretical computer science at university, we used whatever 
type was convenient and appropriate for the task at hand (and more often 
than not it was "alpha" or "A", rather than any specific type).  And 
that was for "there's no need to test the code, because we prove it is 
correct on the blackboard" programming, which is as academic as it comes.

In my job as a practical programmer - mostly low-level, but sometimes 
high-level (however those terms might be defined), I use whatever type 
is convenient and appropriate for the task at hand.  And "bool" is one 
of the most common types I use.

For my own coding, I don't really care whether "bool" is a typedef for 
"_Bool" or a keyword in itself, nor do I care if "true" and "false" are 
keywords, macros, enums, or whatever, as long as they work correctly. 
However, if these are all keywords in a language, then it gives me a 
guarantee that code from elsewhere uses these types and values in 
exactly the same way.  I don't need to check that the code I import has 
defined "typedef enum { uninitialised, true, false } bool;", or some 
other incompatible fun.  So from that viewpoint, having these as 
keywords can be helpful in practice.

But that's /my/ experience - Malcolm's is apparently different.

> C already has a Boolean type.  The question was whether renaming it bool
> is the result of fanatical academic interference in the standard.
> That's what I was asking about.
> 

I would have thought there were other changes in C23 (and even more so, 
some of the proposals that didn't make it into the standard) were better 
candidates for the title of "fanatical academic interference".   But 
perhaps Malcolm sees things differently.

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Thread

To C or not to C++ NOSPAM.Alan.Beck@darkrealms.ca (Alan Beck) - 2022-08-08 09:43 +0000
  Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-08 20:02 +0300
  Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-09 05:38 +0000
    Re: To C or not to C++ Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2022-08-09 11:07 +0200
      Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-10 02:25 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 17:52 -0700
          Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 21:39 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-10 07:45 +0000
          Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-10 19:50 +0000
            Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-10 13:13 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-11 04:29 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-10 02:41 +0000
        Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-10 07:39 +0000
          Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-10 10:11 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 08:23 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-12 12:12 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 14:41 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:09 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 10:28 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-13 09:37 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-12 15:55 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 14:43 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-12 18:07 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 15:14 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:11 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-13 09:38 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 17:56 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-24 11:32 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 11:33 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-24 04:37 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 13:31 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:09 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 15:31 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:38 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 15:57 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-24 10:41 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 21:48 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 07:34 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 11:29 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 04:14 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 12:36 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 05:16 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 17:16 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:35 +0200
                [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie (Was: To C or not to C++) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 21:32 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie (Was: To C or not to C++) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 23:16 +0200
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-26 00:33 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 10:39 +0200
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-26 10:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 12:49 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 19:56 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 10:47 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 13:02 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 04:57 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 14:55 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 06:20 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-27 18:44 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-28 11:30 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:32 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 11:36 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:47 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-26 03:11 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 09:21 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-25 12:58 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:23 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:51 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 12:14 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-24 13:56 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-24 17:18 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:25 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-12 16:46 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-15 06:16 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-15 19:01 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-08-15 22:22 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-16 08:48 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-16 19:19 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-16 12:56 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-17 18:47 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-17 14:49 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-18 14:49 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-19 03:10 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ d thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2022-08-18 22:12 -0400
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-18 20:08 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-19 10:39 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-17 06:45 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-17 18:48 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-16 19:16 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:03 -0700
        Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-10 10:13 +0200
          Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-11 04:25 +0200
            Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-11 01:03 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-11 08:11 +0000
            Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-11 13:53 +0200
              Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-13 04:13 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 21:13 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 12:29 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 13:12 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-14 00:44 +0200
            Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-12 02:54 -0700
              Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:12 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 16:22 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-12 17:49 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-13 03:16 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-13 09:08 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-08-15 14:44 -0700
        Re: To C or not to C++ Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2022-08-10 12:06 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-11 07:04 +0000
  Re: To C or not to C++ Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 12:31 +0200
    Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-09 15:59 +0000
    Re: To C or not to C++ Frederick Virchanza Gotham <cauldwell.thomas@gmail.com> - 2022-08-19 04:09 -0700
  Re: To C or not to C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 12:17 -0700
  Re: To C or not to C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-08-27 23:15 -0700

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