Re: To C or not to C++

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: To C or not to C++
Date	2022-08-26 14:55 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<teafro$3vlpc$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(23 earlier) <bb5029bf-012e-45e7-ae2a-3eae95b0668en@googlegroups.com> <tea1al$3uasj$1@dont-email.me> <8f7e6693-8001-4e30-b502-94883ae308c3n@googlegroups.com> <tea990$3v29f$1@dont-email.me> <63c367cc-c2ac-41ec-a65a-622161ecd58dn@googlegroups.com>

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On 26/08/2022 13:57, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Friday, 26 August 2022 at 12:03:20 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>> On 26/08/2022 11:48, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Friday, 26 August 2022 at 09:47:36 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 26/08/2022 04:56, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 19:36:10 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/08/2022 18:16, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A large proportion of the new features in C23 seem to have originated
>>>>>> with or been promoted by one person - Jens Gustedt. I don't know if he
>>>>>> should be considered an "academic", or a "practical programmer", or
>>>>>> both, or neither.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I looked him up. He's very clearly what I would call an academic rather than a
>>>>> practical programmer. That doesn't mean that he's never produced a piece of
>>>>> code that has run "for real" in his life. But I cannot find a single reference to
>>>>> any commercial software he has worked on. I don't think he's ever held a job
>>>>> as programmer.
>>>>>
>>>> If you look me up (and good luck with that - my name is so common I
>>>> might as well be anonymous) you'll find no references to commercial
>>>> software that I have worked on, and probably no more than obscure
>>>> references in a local Norwegian newspaper concerning what jobs I have
>>>> had. Yet I have over 25 years of professional software development
>>>> practice.
>>>>
>>> You don't hold an academic post at a university. Pretty much everybody who
>>> holds an academic post at university puts up online some bit of information
>>> listing their research interests, and a bit of biographical detail.
>> True. But even if someone has such information available, that does not
>> tell you about what they have or have not done outside of this information.
>>>>
>>>> So your search results have almost no worth at all, as far as I can see.
>>>>
>>> If Gustedt had done significant work on commercial software, I would have
>>> expected it to be listed. You can't prove 100% that he did such work but didn't
>>> think it was interesting enough to mention, but it's not likely.
>> If he has done significant work on commercial software, I would expect
>> it to be extremely likely that it is /not/ mentioned. If he is working
>> as a researcher (at a university or in a research institute of some
>> kind), I expect his interests to be listed and perhaps involvement in
>> research-related software, especially if publicly funded. But work done
>> on commercial software is usually a matter between you and the company,
>> and no one else - it is not information that is publicised. /Sometimes/
>> work on commercial software is publicised, perhaps for particular key
>> roles or because the person has particular interest in taking the
>> credit. But in the great majority of cases, work on software is pretty
>> anonymous.
>>
>> As so often happens, you are extrapolating your somewhat niche personal
>> experience in a way that is not at all justified on a wider scale.
>>>>
>>>> You do seem to be making a distinction here that others (myself, at
>>>> least) do not see. I've known people who work as "practical"
>>>> programmers who are interesting in the theory, academics who do
>>>> practical work, and all sorts of mixes - there is so much "grey area"
>>>> that there is no black or white.
>>>>
>>> There are grey areas, because problems which are theoretically interesting
>>> are also sometimes of practical use. However one fairly unambiguous test
>>> is "is someone paying money for the right to execute this piece of code?".
>>> If the answer is "yes", it must be practical code. If the answer is "no", it might
>>> still be practical, because not every activity that adds value involves economic
>>> exchange, but likely it's not.
>> Even if that test was appropriate (and I would classify it as "possibly
>> vaguely relevant", rather than "fairly unambiguous"), it is not
>> information you would normally have about someone.
>>
> You don't normally go up to someone in the street and quiz them about their career.
> 
> However if you meet someone socially, then it's fairly normal to ask "what do you do
> for a living?". If they say "I'm a software developer", then you'd say "I'm also in the
> software business." Then that would lead on to which programs they work on. If they
> are a games programmer, for example, you'd almost always get a list of titles they
> have contributed to. If they develop software for a bank, you'd probably leave it,
> unless they really want to tell you all about the big systems integration project they
> are engaged in. But they wouldn't be developing code for the bank for free, and the
> bank wouldn't normally pay for code that didn't achieve commercial objectives.
> 

You do understand there is a difference between what you say to a 
friend, colleague or relative socially, and what you publish for the 
world to see in an biography page?  If we were talking in person, and I 
felt I could trust you with confidential information, I could well tell 
you about particular customers of mine.  But neither I nor anyone else 
can publishing details about who I worked with, what programs I worked 
on, or for which customers, without explicit permission from myself, my 
employer, and the relevant customer(s).  Details of commercial 
agreements are confidential by default, and something like the 
connection between developers and customers usually remains confidential 
because it is rarely in anyone's interest to know the details.

I think this thread should probably end here.

Thread

To C or not to C++ NOSPAM.Alan.Beck@darkrealms.ca (Alan Beck) - 2022-08-08 09:43 +0000
  Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-08 20:02 +0300
  Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-09 05:38 +0000
    Re: To C or not to C++ Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2022-08-09 11:07 +0200
      Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-10 02:25 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 17:52 -0700
          Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 21:39 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-10 07:45 +0000
          Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-10 19:50 +0000
            Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-10 13:13 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-11 04:29 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-10 02:41 +0000
        Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-10 07:39 +0000
          Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-10 10:11 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 08:23 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-12 12:12 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 14:41 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:09 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 10:28 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-13 09:37 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-12 15:55 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 14:43 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-12 18:07 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-12 15:14 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:11 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-13 09:38 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 17:56 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-24 11:32 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 11:33 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-24 04:37 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 13:31 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:09 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 15:31 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:38 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 15:57 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-24 10:41 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-24 21:48 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 07:34 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 11:29 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 04:14 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 12:36 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 05:16 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 17:16 +0100
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:35 +0200
                [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie (Was: To C or not to C++) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-25 21:32 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie (Was: To C or not to C++) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 23:16 +0200
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-26 00:33 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 10:39 +0200
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-08-26 10:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] Bad CS course, no cookie David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 12:49 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 19:56 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 10:47 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 13:02 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 04:57 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-26 14:55 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-26 06:20 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-27 18:44 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-28 11:30 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:32 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 11:36 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:47 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-26 03:11 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 09:21 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-25 12:58 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 10:23 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-25 20:51 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-25 12:14 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-24 13:56 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-24 17:18 +0300
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-24 14:25 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-08-12 16:46 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-15 06:16 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-15 19:01 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-08-15 22:22 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-16 08:48 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-16 19:19 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-16 12:56 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-17 18:47 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-17 14:49 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-18 14:49 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-19 03:10 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ d thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2022-08-18 22:12 -0400
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-18 20:08 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-19 10:39 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-17 06:45 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-17 18:48 +0000
                Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-16 19:16 +0000
              Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:03 -0700
        Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-10 10:13 +0200
          Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-11 04:25 +0200
            Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-11 01:03 -0700
            Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-11 08:11 +0000
            Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-11 13:53 +0200
              Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-13 04:13 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-13 21:13 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 12:29 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 13:12 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-08-14 00:44 +0200
            Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-12 02:54 -0700
              Re: To C or not to C++ Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 12:12 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-08-12 16:22 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-12 17:49 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-08-13 03:16 +0200
                Re: To C or not to C++ Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-08-13 09:08 -0700
                Re: To C or not to C++ Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-08-15 14:44 -0700
        Re: To C or not to C++ Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2022-08-10 12:06 +0200
        Re: To C or not to C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-08-11 07:04 +0000
  Re: To C or not to C++ Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-08-09 12:31 +0200
    Re: To C or not to C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-08-09 15:59 +0000
    Re: To C or not to C++ Frederick Virchanza Gotham <cauldwell.thomas@gmail.com> - 2022-08-19 04:09 -0700
  Re: To C or not to C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-08-13 12:17 -0700
  Re: To C or not to C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-08-27 23:15 -0700

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