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Groups > comp.lang.c > #164288
| From | Manfred <noname@add.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Can this program be improved? |
| Date | 2022-01-04 23:01 +0100 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <sr2g4l$13n1$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (19 earlier) <sr1058$1thv$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sr1vgu$u1j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sr24c4$i02$1@dont-email.me> <6d78fbba-8bde-4bf4-9f90-40e59bcd61a3n@googlegroups.com> <sr2ckp$co8$1@dont-email.me> |
On 1/4/2022 10:02 PM, Bart wrote: > On 04/01/2022 18:52, Malcolm McLean wrote: >> On Tuesday, 4 January 2022 at 18:41:20 UTC, Bart wrote: >>> On 04/01/2022 17:18, Guillaume wrote: >>>> Le 04/01/2022 à 09:23, Mateusz Viste a écrit : >>>>> 2022-01-03 at 15:43 -0800, Malcolm McLean wrote: >>>>>> will have been melted down for metal. So is 53 bits enough? I don't >>>>>> write programs that deal withh amounts of money, so I don't really >>>>>> know. However if I had to choose a C type, I'd probably go for >>>>>> integer representation of amounts in cents, using a double. >>>>> >>>>> A double is nice to represent not-100%-precise fractional units, >>>>> it really does not have its place in any kind of financial >>>>> program, esp. if the goal is storing cents anyway. >>>> >>>> Absolutely. Using FP for financial calculations is for people who don't >>>> know arithmetics. Maybe teaching some math (again) to CS students would >>>> help, here? :) >>>> >>>> At the very least, if you absolutely want to use FP for this, at least >>>> use decimal FP. Although it can still have precision issues due to its >>>> floating point nature, at least rounding will not yield gross errors. >>> >>> 64-bit floating point can represent values up to c. 10 trillion dollars >>> to the nearest cent. (I think the limit corresponds to the 2**52 bits of >>> precision.) >>> >> 53 bits. You get a "free" bit because the leading digit is always 1, >> except for >> zero, which has a special representation. > > If the 53rd bit is always 1, then isn't the precision determined by the > other 52 bits? No, it's 53 bits of precision, or, in other words, 53 significant binary digits. The extra 1 bit is the result of proper choice of the exponent representation. However, it is not as if this extra bit came out of some magic, it has a price and it is called subnormal numbers (or denormals). > > So if a mantissa was only going to be 0b10 or 0b11, to me that's only > 1-bit precision! No, it's not about choosing an arbitrary prefix, it is the result of 2 facts: - any leading zeros can be converted into proper exponent adjustment, up to the limit given by the size of the exponent. - in binary arithmetic the first nonzero digit is always 1 :) > >>> It won't be to the exact cent if printed to many decimals, but if you >>> know it is supposed to represent values that end in exactly 0.00 to >>> 0.99, then it will display properly if converted to text and rounded to >>> 2 decimals. >>> >>> So it can be used to store such values. Calculating with it is a >>> different matter if you are actually working with that kind of magnitude >>> and actually need 1-cent accuracy and reproducability (which is going to >>> be virtually nobody). >>> >>>> And if you're OK with using integers, but are afraid fixed-size ones >>>> (at >>>> least 64 bits) could be an unacceptable limit down the road, just use >>>> arbitrary precision arithmetic. And you don't need to hand-implement >>>> that, unless it's your thing. GNU GMP is great. >>> >>> No, it isn't. It's a massive great dependency. If you really need to use >>> it, look for GMP-lite (a solution using one .h and one .c file). >>> >>> However to me that would be a sign of someone who doesn't know what >>> they're doing and just throws unnecessary precision at the problem in >>> the hope it will magically fix any issues. >>> >> I checked a few real world financial implementations. >> In Java, they have a class which can use either a 32-bit integer, a 64 >> bit integer, >> or a "Big Decimal" as the underlying representation. > > 32 bits doesn't sound much but it will represent up to £21m to the exact > penny. So fine for storage up to such limits, but you'd need a bigger > type to do anything beyond adding and subtracting. > >> The recommendation is >> to use the Big Decimal. Presumably it will scale to arbitrarily values. > > Say you have an amount of exactly EC$100.00 (a currency I've worked > with). You want to convert it to US$ at a rate of 1 US$ = $2.7169 EC$ (I > believe this is the official exchange rate). > > The result is US$36.8066546431594832345688100408..., it goes on forever. > > To the nearest US cent, it'll be US$36.81, but it's approximate. You'd > get that result with Big Decimal, float64, or float32. Big decimal > hasn't helped here. > Rounding errors smaller than a cent in the final result are obviously OK - they can't be helped, and such fractional difference couldn't be paid for anyway :) But the problem is that if you use naive FP arithmetic you may end up with errors in the final result that are larger than a cent (sometimes much larger), which is not OK.
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Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-25 01:00 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-24 21:44 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-12-25 12:56 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-25 11:13 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-25 23:50 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 18:52 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-26 19:22 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 21:30 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-26 22:02 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-12-26 18:24 -0500
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-27 00:47 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-12-29 17:52 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-29 17:49 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-29 11:33 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-29 22:45 -0500
Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-30 00:35 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-12-30 10:19 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 18:19 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 19:33 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 14:37 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-29 23:09 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-12-29 23:54 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 16:11 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:34 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-30 12:49 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 21:04 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 02:13 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 16:09 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:59 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 17:48 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 20:47 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-30 01:06 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-30 04:48 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-30 18:16 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 02:20 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-31 18:25 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-31 18:13 -0500
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 23:59 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-31 16:20 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 16:35 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 00:53 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 20:22 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 22:04 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-01 14:59 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-02 17:22 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-02 20:49 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 03:09 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-03 16:22 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:42 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:52 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 22:58 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 04:27 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 13:39 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 00:18 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 15:24 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 15:43 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-01-03 21:19 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-04 09:23 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2022-01-04 18:18 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 10:35 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 14:07 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 15:11 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 15:47 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 18:30 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 23:46 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-04 18:41 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 10:52 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 19:00 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 11:15 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2022-01-04 21:57 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-04 21:02 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 21:38 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-01-04 23:01 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 09:31 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 01:30 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 14:55 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 06:21 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 16:49 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 15:56 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 15:03 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 22:54 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 09:22 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 03:30 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-03 17:22 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 08:48 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 18:42 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-03 17:59 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 11:09 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 20:32 +0100
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 11:58 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-03 18:13 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 20:05 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 16:53 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:29 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-25 12:47 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 18:56 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 17:38 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-12-25 10:58 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 19:16 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-12-25 11:25 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 15:01 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 23:09 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 20:56 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-12-25 19:30 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 15:50 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:02 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-25 11:53 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:00 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-25 11:22 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:01 +0000
Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 13:27 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-25 16:06 -0800
Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-29 15:21 +0000
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