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Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers

From Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Newsgroups linux.debian.project
Subject Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers
Date 2016-12-05 15:50 +0100
Message-ID <sL2KC-5N1-37@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <sJBMt-5TK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <sL2hA-5Dc-37@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

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Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes ("Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers"):
> I think you're really jumping the gun here. While the TC is not
> known for acting rapidly, I (would like to) think it is becoming
> better. In the "recent case" you're using as trigger to this very
> discussion [0], although some TC members have already expressed
> opinions (mostly both ways, I feel), the TC hasn't taken a decision
> yet. It therefore feels quite premature to launch a "Replace the TC
> power to depose maintainers" discussion.

The bug was filed on the 19th of October.  That was nearly 7 weeks
ago.

That is 6+ weeks' more stop-energy.  6+ weeks' more inaction.  6+
weeks during which members of the TC have been prevaricating.


As I wrote in my message to Phil earlier today:

  ISTM that in the current argument, the TC has given the position of
  the existing maintainer great weight.

  Imagine the roles were replaced.  Imagine the actual petitioners (P
  and W, for the same of argument) were the current maintainers, and the
  actual current maintainer (R) were a petitioner saying "please make me
  the maintainer".  Would the TC would spend months debating before
  dismissing such a manifestly unfounded petition ?

It takes very little time to review the history of this package and
conclude that, regardless of the technical merits of the new upstream:
 - the work put in both others over the past years, and blocked
    by the maintainer, far outweighs that put in by the maintainer
 - the maintainer has failed to communicate adequately
 - the maintainer has failed completely in their leadership role
 - in fact the maintainer has done /nothing/ but produce stop-energy

As I say, if P and W were already the maintainer, the TC would surely
have not blocked P and W from uploading the new version for weeks
while they carefully considered whether R might have a point about the
defects of the new upstream version.

> You have been on the TC long enough to know how uneasy a TC members' job can 
> be; what about letting those are now in charge with some room ?

I have been on the TC long enough to become incredibly frustrated with
the longstanding failure of the TC to challenge the unaccountable
authority of Debian maintainers.

Leaving aside the init systems discussion, I have always found that my
primary emotional difficulty as a TC member has been my
incomprehension at my colleagues' lack of gumption.


Over the years, I have tried calm reasoning; I have tried flowery
rhetoric; I have tried private emails; I have had numerous private
IRL conversations.

I still don't understand why the TC is so crushingly slow to conter
maintainer power in Debian.  As I say in my other emails, a result of
the TC's inaction, maintainer power in Debian is nearly unassailable.


Ian.

-- 
Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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Thread

Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-01 16:50 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 17:20 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2016-12-01 18:30 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-01 19:00 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-01 18:50 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-01 19:10 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 19:30 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Sheetal Shalini <sheetalsh456@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 11:40 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Jérémy Bobbio <lunar@debian.org> - 2016-12-03 21:30 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2016-12-08 16:30 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 19:10 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Clint Adams <clint@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 19:30 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 19:40 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2016-12-01 19:30 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-02 12:50 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-02 13:40 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-02 14:00 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2016-12-02 16:10 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2016-12-02 20:40 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2016-12-02 13:20 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-02 13:50 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2016-12-02 14:50 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org> - 2016-12-02 16:30 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2016-12-02 23:30 +0100
            Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2016-12-03 07:00 +0100
              Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-03 11:30 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2016-12-03 11:50 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Sheetal Shalini <sheetalsh456@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 11:50 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers David Bremner <david@tethera.net> - 2016-12-03 12:20 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 12:40 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2016-12-05 18:50 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 19:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> - 2016-12-05 19:20 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> - 2016-12-05 20:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org> - 2016-12-05 20:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-05 21:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 23:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers [and 1 more messages] Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-06 05:30 +0100
                Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was:  Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-06 09:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2016-12-06 10:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was:  Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-06 15:00 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2016-12-06 15:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2016-12-06 15:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was:  Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-06 16:00 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> - 2016-12-06 16:10 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was:  Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Johannes Schauer <josch@debian.org> - 2016-12-06 16:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> - 2016-12-06 16:30 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-06 16:50 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2016-12-11 19:50 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 02:30 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-12 02:40 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 03:00 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-12 03:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 14:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-12 15:30 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 18:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-12 18:20 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2016-12-12 19:40 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2016-12-12 09:30 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-12 13:50 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2016-12-06 16:40 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages  (was: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Christian Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2016-12-06 18:40 +0100
                Re: Formal declaration of weak package ownership in source packages (was:  Replace the TC power to depose maintainers) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-06 14:50 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2016-12-08 16:40 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> - 2016-12-09 13:10 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 02:20 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-02 16:50 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2016-12-03 11:50 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-03 18:40 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-03 23:30 +0100
            Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 12:10 +0100
              Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-05 19:30 +0100
              Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-05 21:20 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 23:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-05 23:20 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-06 00:20 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-06 01:00 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-06 15:10 +0100
                Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-06 05:40 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2016-12-05 15:20 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-06 15:30 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2016-12-07 11:30 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 12:00 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-12-08 07:40 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Piotr Ożarowski <piotr@debian.org> - 2016-12-08 11:30 +0100
    Maintainerless Hive-Mind? (was Re: Replace the TC power to depose  maintainers) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2016-12-08 03:20 +0100
      Re: Maintainerless Hive-Mind? (was Re: Replace the TC power to  depose maintainers) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2016-12-09 11:40 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2016-12-05 15:20 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 15:50 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-05 19:50 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 15:50 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2016-12-05 16:10 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 18:50 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-05 21:30 +0100
            Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 23:00 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-05 21:20 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-05 22:10 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-05 22:20 +0100
            Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-05 22:50 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Matthew Woodcraft <matthew@woodcraft.me.uk> - 2016-12-05 23:20 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2016-12-10 07:50 +0100
        Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 02:40 +0100
          Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2016-12-16 13:30 +0100
            Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-16 14:10 +0100
  Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Russell Stuart <russell-debian@stuart.id.au> - 2016-12-07 00:10 +0100
    Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2016-12-07 09:40 +0100
      Re: Replace the TC power to depose maintainers Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 12:00 +0100

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