Re: Is this really necessary

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Is this really necessary
Date	2021-06-05 15:41 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<s9fuu0$pc3$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<s9fl3f$ha7$1@dont-email.me> <s9fq58$3qr$1@dont-email.me> <dbfb7969-4661-40d3-8926-0a87de59fce1n@googlegroups.com>

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On 05/06/2021 14:38, Öö Tiib wrote:
> On Saturday, 5 June 2021 at 15:20:07 UTC+3, David Brown wrote:
>> On 05/06/2021 12:53, Bonita Montero wrote: 
>>> Consider the following code: 
>>>
>>>
>>> size_t s( int *begin, int *end ) 
>>> { 
>>> return (end - begin) * sizeof(int); 
>>> } 
>>>
>>> This is MSVC's disassembly: 
>>>
>>> sub rdx, rcx 
>>> and rdx, -4 
>>> mov rax, rdx 
>>> ret 0 
>>>
>>> This is gcc's disassembly: 
>>>
>>> movq %rsi, %rax 
>>> subq %rdi, %rax 
>>> ret 
>>>
>>> It the masking really necessary or just an optimizer weakness; 
>>> it seems to me MSVC sees that two bits are shifted out and "in" 
>>> and replaces this with a mask. 
>>> I think that the language-standard assumes equally aligned data 
>>> among same types for the above code and gcc is corcect, but I'm 
>>> not sure. 
>>>
>> I can't help thinking that putting a non-aligned value into an int 
>> pointer is undefined behaviour - but I can't find a reference to that in 
>> the C standards (and I don't know the C++ standards well enough to look 
>> there). 
> 
> The C and C++ programs that use unaligned pointers are undefined (in
> sense of standard) regardless of the target architecture (that may allow
> unaligned accesses) but the implementations can extend.
> 

Of course implementations can add whatever definitions they want beyond
the requirements of the standard.

And while dereferencing unaligned pointers is undefined behaviour (by
the standards), I haven't found anything that says that merely assigning
an unaligned value to a pointer is undefined behaviour.  But that could
easily be something I missed - hopefully someone can then give the
reference (in the C or C++ standards).

>> However, when you subtract two pointers, the behaviour is only 
>> defined if they both point to elements inside the same array (or one 
>> past the end). It doesn't matter how they are aligned, as the offset 
>> from the standard "int" alignment will be the same for both pointers. 
>> (This applies also to 8-bit systems where you might have 16-bit int but 
>> 8-bit alignment for int.) Thus gcc's code is fine.
> 
> Also MS code is fine as that masking should not have any ill effects
> to conforming code.
> 

Sure.  Suboptimal, but correct.

>> MSVC has a tradition of being more conservative in its optimisations, 
>> while gcc has a tradition of expecting people to write valid code and 
>> optimise on the assumption that undefined behaviour does not occur. 
>> This is, I think, because MSDOS and Windows programmers have a tradition 
>> of assuming their code runs on one platform and one compiler, and "it 
>> worked when I tested it" means "it is correct". (Your own misstatements 
>> about undefined behaviour have demonstrated that.) gcc users are more 
>> likely to understand that their code could be used on different 
>> platforms and different processors, and pay a bit more attention to the 
>> rules of the language.
> 
> I think that most important requirement of MSVC is that it should build
> good binaries out of Microsoft's own code base regardless how tricky
> that code base is.

That is a reasonable requirement!

> The gcc as whole does not have that sort of obligations. 

gcc needs to be able to compile gcc and all its dependencies, libraries,
etc.  That in itself is a rather massive and complex code base, full of
all kinds of weird stuff for historic reasons (including garbage
collection, mixes of C and C++, and code that dates back 30+ years that
no one really understands).

They also work with the Linux kernel folk and distributions like Debian
to test on a huge variety of existing software.  I'm not sure whether
you could call that an "obligation" or a "requirement" for gcc as a
whole or, as you say, just for some people working on gcc.  But it is
certainly something they do in the process of testing and preparing
releases.

> Perhaps some people working on gcc code base have but they are from 
> wide variety of companies.
>

Thread

Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 12:53 +0200
  Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:19 +0200
    Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 14:27 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:33 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 15:06 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:29 +0200
            Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 17:38 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 17:51 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:56 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:24 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 10:33 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 07:56 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 15:00 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:44 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 12:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:25 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-07 21:21 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 06:34 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 20:03 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:59 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_85yGi2@1ahbfz.gov - 2021-08-08 09:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-08 09:23 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-08 15:04 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-08 13:14 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_1dgrmf@dx58865qyrdw30lqllb.info - 2021-08-09 08:21 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:53 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:22 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:41 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-08-08 20:01 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ifhov@nldls6_1kg3nl2qnwv.biz - 2021-08-09 08:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:55 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 12:16 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_HG@_0b772d8ha3yjo0xb.edu - 2021-08-09 16:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-09 21:50 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 20:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 01:12 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 21:21 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 07:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:29 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_12tus_Atff@bya886olr5o8dhu9.ac.uk - 2021-08-10 07:28 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-10 15:34 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_wPgnov999o@vv7a6.tv - 2021-08-10 15:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-11 07:05 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 14:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:57 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_pb9bpp7Ej@6urvt16b9fax.gov.uk - 2021-08-10 07:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:02 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:11 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-10 16:13 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 08:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:50 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 08:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 15:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-12 20:07 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-13 07:16 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-13 10:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:07 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 15:30 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 11:18 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-14 13:24 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 20:33 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-15 00:40 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-15 07:02 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-15 21:19 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-21 12:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:13 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:58 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:32 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:28 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:00 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-08-14 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-14 15:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-08-12 12:06 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:03 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:54 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 20:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:42 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 05:26 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:01 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 23:20 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_m7k7yilq_8@u6w.biz - 2021-08-10 07:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 07:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ggBp1lq0@lxz.tv - 2021-08-10 07:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 12:24 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_u7lm@bxuc3wy1g3cxiqu5j2x1_7iu.com - 2021-08-10 15:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:47 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:46 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 11:20 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 17:44 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_885p_dugji@l6zhsgj_v6t3dbj.tv - 2021-08-10 15:50 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-11 08:31 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:27 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:44 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-11 16:05 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:41 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-06 18:48 +0300
            Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 14:26 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:10 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 21:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:49 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 22:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:43 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-07 09:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-07 10:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:54 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-06 23:17 -0700
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:19 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-10 11:29 -0700
    Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 05:38 -0700
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:41 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 08:18 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:58 -0400
    Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_rs7x@4hhtozmpj299zx.tv - 2021-06-05 16:00 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 18:16 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 17:34 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_ie@q67rq6_2ly9ut44j.org - 2021-06-06 13:55 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-05 19:50 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_zn7@4tzq7j92.gov - 2021-06-06 13:59 +0000
    Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 17:42 -0400
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:05 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:27 -0700
  Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-06 21:27 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 00:22 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:53 +0000
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 18:02 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-16 21:38 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:52 +0000

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