Re: Is this really necessary

From	Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Is this really necessary
Date	2021-06-06 16:20 -0700
Organization	None to speak of
Message-ID	<87mts2vavc.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <s9fssi$i74$1@dont-email.me> <s9fu8h$c2j$1@dont-email.me> <s9h061$u9d$1@dont-email.me> <20210606103347.06e3663e23b85fa28ff9cd39@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> <rJ2vI.289637$N_4.135388@fx36.iad>

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Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:
> On 6/6/21 5:33 AM, Chris Vine wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:08:49 -0400
>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>> Apologies to David, who has already received two versions of this
>>> message as e-mail, because I keep hitting the Thunderbird "Reply" button
>>> instead of their new "Followup" button.
>>>
>>> On 6/5/21 9:29 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 05/06/2021 15:06, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>>>> No.  Subtraction of pointers is defined as the difference in their
>>>>>> indexes within a single array.
>>>>>
>>>>> That coudn't be true because you can cast any pointer-pair
>>>>> to char *, subtract them and use the difference for memcpy().
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Look it up.
>>>
>>> That works in C because every C object can be accessed as an array of
>>> char. C++ allows more complicated possibilities, including objects that
>>> are not contiguous. But it works in C++ if the relevant objects are
>>> required to be contiguous. If two such objects are both sub-objects of
>>> the same larger object, the difference between those pointers satisfies
>>> that requirement, otherwise the subtraction is undefined.
>> 
>> Assuming C++20, on my (possibly faulty) reading you could _not_ access
>> any given object as an array of char, but you could access it as an
>> array of unsigned char or std::byte.  This is because you can construct
>> any object in an array of unsigned char or of std::byte, so that even
>> where some other storage for a particular object has in fact been
>> provided, such an array will implicitly arise in consequence of the
>> carrying out of any pointer arithmetic which prods around in the
>> object's internals.
>> 
>> So although the strict aliasing rule is not offended by the use of
>> char* for this purpose, I suspect the rules on pointer arithmetic are.
>
> I haven't poured over the standard recently, but my memory was that the
> type family char / signed char / unsigned char all had this property,
> but if you actually accessed the values, signed char (and char is
> signed) had the possibility of a trap value (-0).

I think you meant "(and char *if* signed)".

As of C++17, signed types including signed char can use two's
complement, ones' complement, or signed magnitude, but:
    For unsigned narrow character types, each possible bit pattern of
    the value representation represents a distinct number. These
    requirements do not hold for other types.
which means that plain char and signed char have no trap representations
and no padding bits.

Drafts of C++20 permit only two's complement for signed integer types.
(You're unlikely to find a pre-C++20 implementation that doesn't already
meet that requirement.)

I haven't looked into what the standard says about aliasing arbitrary
objects with arrays of signed char.

> unsigned char had the natural property that its values were precisely
> defined by the standard, but any character type could be used, if only
> because of ancient code that used char for this purpose.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips Healthcare
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

Thread

Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 12:53 +0200
  Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:19 +0200
    Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 14:27 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:33 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 15:06 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:29 +0200
            Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 17:38 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 17:51 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:56 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:24 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 10:33 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 07:56 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 15:00 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:44 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 12:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:25 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-07 21:21 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 06:34 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 20:03 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:59 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_85yGi2@1ahbfz.gov - 2021-08-08 09:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-08 09:23 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-08 15:04 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-08 13:14 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_1dgrmf@dx58865qyrdw30lqllb.info - 2021-08-09 08:21 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:53 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:22 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:41 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-08-08 20:01 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ifhov@nldls6_1kg3nl2qnwv.biz - 2021-08-09 08:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:55 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 12:16 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_HG@_0b772d8ha3yjo0xb.edu - 2021-08-09 16:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-09 21:50 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 20:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 01:12 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 21:21 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 07:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:29 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_12tus_Atff@bya886olr5o8dhu9.ac.uk - 2021-08-10 07:28 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-10 15:34 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_wPgnov999o@vv7a6.tv - 2021-08-10 15:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-11 07:05 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 14:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:57 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_pb9bpp7Ej@6urvt16b9fax.gov.uk - 2021-08-10 07:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:02 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:11 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-10 16:13 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 08:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:50 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 08:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 15:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-12 20:07 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-13 07:16 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-13 10:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:07 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 15:30 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 11:18 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-14 13:24 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 20:33 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-15 00:40 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-15 07:02 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-15 21:19 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-21 12:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:13 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:58 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:32 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:28 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:00 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-08-14 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-14 15:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-08-12 12:06 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:03 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:54 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 20:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:42 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 05:26 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:01 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 23:20 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_m7k7yilq_8@u6w.biz - 2021-08-10 07:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 07:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ggBp1lq0@lxz.tv - 2021-08-10 07:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 12:24 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_u7lm@bxuc3wy1g3cxiqu5j2x1_7iu.com - 2021-08-10 15:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:47 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:46 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 11:20 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 17:44 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_885p_dugji@l6zhsgj_v6t3dbj.tv - 2021-08-10 15:50 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-11 08:31 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:27 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:44 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-11 16:05 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:41 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-06 18:48 +0300
            Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 14:26 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:10 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 21:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:49 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 22:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:43 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-07 09:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-07 10:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:54 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-06 23:17 -0700
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:19 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-10 11:29 -0700
    Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 05:38 -0700
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:41 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 08:18 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:58 -0400
    Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_rs7x@4hhtozmpj299zx.tv - 2021-06-05 16:00 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 18:16 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 17:34 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_ie@q67rq6_2ly9ut44j.org - 2021-06-06 13:55 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-05 19:50 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_zn7@4tzq7j92.gov - 2021-06-06 13:59 +0000
    Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 17:42 -0400
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:05 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:27 -0700
  Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-06 21:27 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 00:22 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:53 +0000
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 18:02 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-16 21:38 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:52 +0000

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