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Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL

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On 3/8/2021 8:01 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 08/03/2021 18:53, Manfred wrote:
>> On 3/8/2021 3:19 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 08/03/2021 14:36, tylo wrote:
>>>> Ok, last post from me for now because of time:
>>>> mandag 8. mars 2021 kl. 11:46:57 UTC+1 skrev David Brown:
>>
>>>>> /If/ you can get your library into common use, then your arguments
>>>>> hold - until then, the opposite is true. This is the reality of the
>>>>>    situation, unfortunate and unfair though it might seem.
>>>>
>>>> I accept this. I don't think it is unfair, but admit it may feel like
>>>> casting pearls before swines, because people will continue to hold
>>>> back the C language by either avoiding such containers, or making
>>>> their own poor versions of them, and to program even high-level
>>>> abstractions as it was low-level details. I think this  eventually
>>>> will result in that C becomes a marginal language, unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I also think that C will become a marginal language.  But I think it
>>> /should/ become a marginal language.  I think C is the wrong choice for
>>> a great deal of code that is written in C at the moment.  C has its
>>> place - in some kinds of systems code, in some low-level portable
>>> libraries, in very small embedded systems, and as a common denominator
>>> as an interface between libraries and programs written in different
>>> languages.  In my view, its use for applications is in the past.  If you
>>> need a container structure beyond what you can easily put together
>>> yourself, and it is not so specialised that you /need/ to create it
>>> yourself, then you should be questioning if C is the right choice of
>>> language for the task.  (I don't want to be too general here -
>>> /sometimes/ it will be the right choice.)
>>
>> Define marginal. But before that how do you classify server code?
>> Application or system? I think it is best a class on its own, and we all
>> know there's a lot of it written in C - and, as far as I have seen, with
>> good results, meaning that C is the right choice for the task.
>> For interactive applications I agree that since the last few decades
>> better choices than C are available.
>>
> 
> I don't want to try to be too specific here - that would, I think,
> inevitably end up either wrong to so limited as to be of little value.
> I'm giving an opinion and rough prediction, rather than anything
> accurate (which is always difficult about future trends!).  As a general
> pattern, I feel that more is written in C than is appropriate, and also
> that many things that used to be written in C are now written in other
> languages.  That does not mean that C was not the right choice for those
> tasks before - it means I think it is generally not the best choice in
> as many cases as it used to be.
> 
> You mention servers as a class.  It used to be the case that the only
> sensible choice of language for a webserver, for example, was C.  Later,
> C++ might have been a reasonable option.  And this would interact with
> server side languages like PHP and Python running in separate processes,
> passing data through pipes.  Now if you wanted to write a new webserver
> with a view to running Python server code, you'd likely write the whole
> server in Python (the time-critical parts would be in C modules anyway).
>   If you wanted to run Ruby or PHP, you might pick those languages for
> the webserver too.  If it was to be a general purpose webserver, perhaps
> Go would be the choice.  There are many options, all giving better
> developer productivity with lower risk of errors than C.  It is rare
> that the greater potential for raw speed of C is really necessary.

A webserver is somewhat peculiar nowadays, because the Internet is so 
widespread, and you find a plethora of different contexts where a 
"webserver" is deployed, from ISPs to IOT chips. Being so widespread, 
some higher level languages even ship most of the http stack as part of 
their standard library - a webserver in Java is next to trivial.

More in general, thinking things like e.g. fileservers or VPN gateways, 
as far as I can see C pretty hard to beat.

> 
>> Defining marginal.
>> If you mean with respect to the number of programs being /written/, then
>> I agree with you.
>> With respect to the amount of code that is or will be /run/, then,
>> irrespective of the fact this may be code that has already been written,
>> I don't think C is likely to become marginal any time soon.
>>
> 
> That is an important distinction, and I agree with you.  It is like
> noting that most C code is written for 64-bit systems - most C code is
> /run/ on 8-bit systems.  (Or that Hamlet is reckoned to be the most
> written-about character, real or fictional, in the UK.  But he is not
> the most read-about character!)
> 

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STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 07:16 -0800
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-03-03 21:36 +0000
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 20:49 -0800
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 13:50 -0800
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 13:56 -0800
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL John Dill <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 14:17 -0800
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-03-03 16:21 -0600
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-03-03 22:45 +0000
        Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-03-03 17:21 -0600
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL John Dill <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 15:05 -0800
        Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-03-03 17:28 -0600
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 20:44 -0800
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 20:45 -0800
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2021-03-04 10:16 +0100
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-04 12:09 +0100
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-03-04 12:00 +0000
        Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-04 14:15 +0100
          Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 14:51 -0800
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2021-03-04 19:19 +0300
        Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 11:41 -0800
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2021-03-05 10:19 +1300
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 00:23 -0800
        Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-08 11:46 +0100
          Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 05:36 -0800
            Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-08 15:19 +0100
              Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 08:23 -0800
              Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-03-08 18:53 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-08 20:01 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-03-09 17:16 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-09 17:55 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Kaz Kylheku <563-365-8930@kylheku.com> - 2021-03-09 17:19 +0000
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-03-09 19:58 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-03-09 18:42 +0100
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:41 -0800
                Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:45 -0800
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-03-04 18:46 +0000
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 23:35 -0800
  Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:05 -0800
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:18 -0800
      Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL tylo <tylovset@gmail.com> - 2021-03-16 14:49 -0700
    Re: STC - A "Standard Template Containers" library for C, similar to STL Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2021-03-09 21:25 -0800

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