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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #213911
| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? |
| Date | 2020-09-08 10:28 -0400 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <rj84ek$c65$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <rj6ebt$hoj$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rj6ge8$jkq$1@dont-email.me> <rj6jhe$5ac$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rj6qs9$ohu$3@dont-email.me> <rj81np$l1s$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes: > On 09/08/20 03:39, Dan Espen wrote: >> Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes: > > <snipped) > >>> >>> I use older versions of Suse, but the last time I had a look at a >>> later version, it had animations, bouncy bouncy and more dross, >>> pages and pages full of running processes, no idea what they all >>> did, Windows wannabe incarnate, but no use to me. >> >> To get rid of all that use a window manager. I install new releases >> all the time. Nothing visible changes unless I want it to. > > I must be missing something, as if you are running a gui,with all the > bouncy castle stuff, then you have a window manager running. I guess I wasn't clear. The window managers packaged as a 'desktop' tend to be the ones that change all the time and bounce around. If you pick one of the more traditional window managers nothing will bounce around or change without you wanting it to. My main experience is with Fvwm. Maybe other window managers are different. Another poster mentioned a twm variant. Very stable, no bouncing. > As for updates, rarely do it. Once a system is the way I want it, it's locked > down unless there are good reasons to change it. Constant updates > are a windoze "feature", but that just illustrates how bad it > really is, with so many bugs as shipped. The update idea is like > insurance, selling fear and paranoia. I like to apply updates to get the latest versions of the software I'm using. Stability has it's benefits but it's hard to follow a Gimp tutorial when you're not running the version the tutorial addresses. >>> The problem with >>> systemd is that it has it's fingers into so many things, >> >> Actually no. The systemd project has spread out into many areas. >> That's just a sign of how productive the systemd team is. > > You are trolling, right ? :-). > > I guess you can paint a t**d any colour you like, but it still > stinks underneath. Ridiculous. >> I consider that a separate issue from systemd the replacement from init. > > I thought that was the whole point of systemd, an init replacement, > but obviously misjudged it. If true, systemd has visions of empire, > running the whole show instead of the kernel. Thought from the > start that the systemd project was a power grab by Red Hat and all > part of the strategy to exert ever more control over the direction > of Linux as an open source project. In some ways, that's > understandable, since they fund a lot of development, but there's a > fine balance between the idealism and creativity of open source and > the hard edged businesses which companies like Red Hat are. More ridiculous. The kernel still does what it needs to do. >> And I can't see how it's a problem if one team keeps looking at >> Linux thinking what should we improve next. So, to clarify, >> it's not systemd that has it's fingers in so many things, it's the >> systemd team. > > If it ain't broke, dont fix it, though I guess they have to justify > their existence and salaries. With that attitude, no wonder mainstream > Linux looks more and more like a Camel. Change for change's sake > rarely has a good outcome. I guess your corollary is if it can be improved leave it alone. >>> Linux >>> is becoming psychotic, not really knowing what is really running >>> the show, the kernel, or systemd. >> >> systemd starts all the services. The kernel still does what it's >> supposed to do. I don't see a problem. >> >>> Apparently gnome won't run now >>> without it, and more, so how is that an init replacement only ?. >> >> Gnome is full of utilities that start/stop/customize services. >> How do you suppose they do that without being dependent on >> the .service files?. > > That doesn't address the the comment. Deflection ?. What comment? The kernel vs. systemd comment? The kernel does what it does, systemd hasn't changed that. What "show" are you thinking about? >>> Whatever, but there is just one primary config file for FreeBSD, where >>> services can be enabled, drivers loaded and much more. It really isn't >>> much effort to learn how to do that and there are service management >>> utilites as well. Typically, just a couple of pages of processes >>> running with xfce4, less with no gui. Tight design and engineering >>> efficiency at work. So why do I need systemd ?. Convince me :-)... >> >> One config file for hundreds of possible services? >> I don't think so. Like I said, I don't know BSD init but I'm pretty >> sure it has a script to start/stop each individual service. That's >> hundreds of possible scripts. If they are like SysV init, you can't >> tell externally what they do. They have to support stop and start, >> do they support restart, reload? Where is the descriptive name of the service? > > Sure, thee are config scripts for the various services, but for a > typical system, rarely any need to even look at them. They can be > controlled, start, stop restart etc, from the command line or from > elsewhere, such as the rc.conf file. On solaris, there are the svcs > and svcadm utilities and on FreeBSD, the service utility. I keep > mentioning Solaris, but have used it for decades and FreeBSD is a nod > in that direction, with ZFS, light weight virtualisation ideas > seemingly borrowed from it. Deflection? What does ZFS have to do with systemd? >> Take a look at this: >> >> h> systemctl status acpid >> acpid.service - ACPI Event Daemon >> Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/acpid.service; disabled; vendor preset: disabled) >> Active: active (running) since Mon 2020-09-07 12:45:21 EDT; 9h ago >> TriggeredBy: acpid.socket >> Docs: man:acpid(8) >> Main PID: 1023 (acpid) >> Tasks: 1 (limit: 2306) >> Memory: 248.0K >> CPU: 6.613s >> CGroup: /system.slice/acpid.service >> /usr/sbin/acpid -f >> Sep 07 12:45:21 home.home systemd[1]: Started ACPI Event Daemon. > > FreeBSD has equivalent management tools. For example, ps -dx > gives a tree structured text listing of the processes on the > system and their hierarchy.The service command will > list services and information, as well as start stop, > restart etc. The top command gives a load of info on running > processes, memory usage, priority and current state, but that's > on most unix systems. Perhaps systemd will do that and more, > but why ?. So with systemd you get one integrated display of a services status along with a description of what it does. Linux has all the tools you mention. Why does systemd tell you all it does? Because you asked about the services status. It gives you a complete answer. Is your claim that it's better to have to hunt around for all that information? > A quick test here, xfce4 + couple of terminal windows running, > around 75 processes loaded. Now try that with linux and gnome 3. > Do you want a lean and clean street racer,. or a sclerotic mess ?. I fail to see the significance of your comment about xfce vs. Gnome. Both work fine with systemd. > Anyway, you have already said you know nothing about it, so > why not broaden your horizons and give it a test install ?. > Less than an hour of your time, or is a text only install and > package config too difficult ?. Plenty of how to tutorials on > the web if you get stuck... Is it too difficult? Are you trying to insult me? Right now my system is doing everything I need. So far I haven't seen anything mentioned that would qualify as an improvement. I guess I just don't have the "systemd is evil" disease. -- Dan Espen
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Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 20:57 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-05 20:40 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-05 22:44 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-08 21:10 +0000
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Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 19:35 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-06 07:12 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:36 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 19:05 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-02 21:44 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 22:16 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-03 00:57 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-02 23:05 -0500
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Fred Weigel <fridtjof.martin.weigel@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 16:03 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-03 17:35 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-04 08:35 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 11:28 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-02 23:28 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 10:21 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:16 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-03 21:07 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 18:40 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:36 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-06 17:42 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-06 16:52 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:34 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 17:59 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 22:07 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 06:30 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 10:02 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-09-06 17:47 +0300
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-06 08:12 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-09-11 08:22 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:23 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:19 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:51 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-05 17:01 -0600
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 08:23 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-06 20:03 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-06 17:26 -0600
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:20 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 11:14 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-07 05:27 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 08:32 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 11:01 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:28 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:50 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:48 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:58 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-07 17:47 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-07 18:02 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 20:57 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:44 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 00:05 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 19:40 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 01:33 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:39 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-08 11:01 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 14:42 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 10:28 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 16:48 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 12:12 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:33 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:47 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:49 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:35 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-08 20:01 -0300
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:16 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-09 03:50 -0300
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-09 17:20 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-10 03:29 -0300
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 09:20 -0600
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:39 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 12:01 -0600
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-09-09 17:59 +0300
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 11:54 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:18 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 19:44 +0100
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-08 01:27 +0000
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:54 -0400
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-08 16:01 +0000
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:00 +0100
Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:41 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:37 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:31 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 22:54 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 18:09 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:18 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:10 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 09:41 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:34 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 12:43 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 13:29 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:44 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-09 18:31 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 15:49 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-09 20:41 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 17:32 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-10 05:17 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 12:15 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-10 11:51 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 14:40 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 17:39 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:03 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:45 +0000
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 12:02 -0400
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 17:35 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-09 21:05 +0100
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-09 16:55 -0700
Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:48 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:38 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-08 02:29 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:53 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 17:43 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:00 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 07:10 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 16:32 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 04:10 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 01:01 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-08 11:36 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-07-08 16:01 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-08 15:01 -0700
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 22:45 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 19:30 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-08 21:02 -0500
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:09 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:44 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:49 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:53 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-08 14:17 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 22:00 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 13:56 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Daniel Jendinger <hexabit@daniels-mac-mini2.local> - 2021-09-06 18:56 +0000
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 17:27 -0400
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-06 22:30 +0100
Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:29 -0700
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