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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #29901
| From | Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Interrupts: can be lost? |
| Date | 2020-07-30 19:05 +0100 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <rfv25k$pr6$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (15 earlier) <0d332c25-75c0-440c-8f3e-ff2a04bac1d7o@googlegroups.com> <rfsrcs$17di$1@gioia.aioe.org> <05f12585-0dfa-473c-8e96-5fac9753b682o@googlegroups.com> <rft36l$1rta$1@gioia.aioe.org> <9b717da0-b64f-41c2-822b-2616420a70c2o@googlegroups.com> |
On 07/30/20 01:53, Rick C wrote: > On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:11:11 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote: >> On 07/30/20 00:47, Rick C wrote: >>> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote: >>>> On 07/29/20 21:23, Rick C wrote: >>>>> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 2:44:46 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote: >>>>>> On 07/10/20 07:28, Rick C wrote: >>>>>>> On Friday, July 10, 2020 at 2:01:49 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote: >>>>>>>> On 10/7/20 11:41 am, Rick C wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, July 9, 2020 at 6:22:24 PM UTC-4, lasselangwad...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> torsdag den 9. juli 2020 kl. 20.47.25 UTC+2 skrev Paul Rubin: >>>>>>>>>>> Rick C<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>>>>>>>> I have yet to find a single ARM processor that had a true, pin >>>>>>>>>>>> compatible second source. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I thought there were some Chinese clones of the lower end STM32F series >>>>>>>>>>> but I haven't paid close attention. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> yep, I know there are several clones of STM32F103xxxx >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So "clone" equals "second source"??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not really. They haven't licensed ST's masks, they've just designed >>>>>>>> their own chips to match the documented behaviour. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The chips I know of are by GigiDevice and Mindmotion, part numbers >>>>>>>> GD32F3??? and MM32F??? to match the STM32F???. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see over 100 variants waiting on reels in JLCPCB's fab. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Clifford Heath. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, then they are pretty useless as second sources. I see someone mentioned bugs that are being worked out. Not encouraging. Is Gigidevice a company that makes FPGAs? Or am I mixing them up with someone else? Ah, I see I have downloaded their data sheets, so I guess I was looking at a low cost RISC-V board and also have info on their ARM ST clone chip. Wait, it's the same chip! No sign of FPGAs. That was one of the other companies like AGM, Anlogic or maybe Gowin. AGM has an interesting data sheet, but it's two years old and no sign of the device. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems to me that companies that box themselves into a corner over >>>>>> processors and second sources get what they deserve and is generally >>>>>> a sign of poor strategy and project management. I've worked on a >>>>>> couple of projects using essentially obsolete 8051 hardware, >>>>>> recommended a redesign using a more modern architecture, but they >>>>>> were not listening. Result was a greatly extended development time, >>>>>> costs, difficult ongoing software maintenance and compromises >>>>>> everywhere due to banked architecture for code and data. Having said >>>>>> that, have used the silabs 80F... series for a couple of small >>>>>> projects which worked really well. You wouldn't want to look at the >>>>>> asm op from the compiler, but more than adequate for the task and >>>>>> all written in C... >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> If a product requirement is to use only second sourced devices, that's the requirement. How do you propose getting around that? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Fire the manager involved ?. >>>> >>>> As I said, if you box yourself into a corner in the design, then >>>> choices become limited. I prefer to take a higher level view and >>>> try to abstract the hardware into functions that are common to >>>> most micros. For example comms, timers and other core functions. >>>> Define a set of call interfaces into that required functionality, >>>> then all that's needed is an abstraction layer between that and >>>> the underlying hardware. There are great benefits in terms of code >>>> reuse, reliablity, cost and project times. Use a subset of processor >>>> capabilities and deal with special cases as needed. There is some >>>> work, but develop over a few projects, to end up with a set of known >>>> good library code that can be added to and reused indefinately. I >>>> think it was Win NT that first publicised the idea of a hw abstraction >>>> layer, but with the speed of modern micros, you can apply that idea to >>>> just about any embedded project. >>>> >>>> The whole idea is to design assuming that the hardware will change >>>> over time, new requirements, performance, cost, whatever, as new >>>> micros come to market. The exact opposite of s design frozen in >>>> time, with all the hassle that involves... >>>> >>>> Chris >>> >>> Ok, I get it. You don't understand requirements. There are perfectly valid reasons for wanting second sources on parts that obviously have never applied on projects you've worked on. So you don't understand why anyone will need that requirement. >>> >>> Whether you understand or not, that's a valid requirement and firing the manager to change the requirement will only result in a failure of the project. >>> >>> If you want to discuss the issue, I'm happy to do that, but you are going to need to change a lot of your assumptions for us to communicate. >>> >> >> ???... >> >> Oh, I understand requirements, but while second sourcing is always a >> desirable thing for any manufactured item, it gets more and more >> difficult to ensure with the ever increasing complexity and feature >> set of modern micros, all of which differ. All I was trying to do >> was suggest a different way of looking at things, but if you have >> already made your mind up, not much point really. Find a different >> solution, it's that simple. Just because you demand something >> won't make it magically happen, or that it's even possible. >> >> The only people who have a financial muscle to ensure second source >> and decades supply guarantee are probably defence and avionics, but >> most of industry doesn't work that way, far too expensive. Best you >> can hope to do is choose a vendor agnostic architecture, like arm, >> for example, where there's chance you will be able to make at least >> some of the code common to several vendor's product... >> >> Chris > > You do not understand, which shows in your use of the term "desirable". > > This is getting absurd. You want to make the issue about the whim of a manager or myself and you don't understand that redesigning a produce at times is literally not an option because of the huge expense. You must not have worked on anything that needed more than just testing and it was out the door. > > My current product had to go through various levels of certification before it could be used. A part on the board is getting expensive to buy and eventually will be unavailable. I might be willing to design a new board with a different part, but the company who buys them may not be willing to pay for the certifications. At that point the product will be dead. > > There are apps where the certs are very expensive, like space or various safety related uses. Nuke plants are an example. > > I'm not going to continue to bat this around with you when you clearly are not getting the concept. Oh, I understand requirements, but while second sourcing is always a desirable thing for any manufactured item, it gets more and more difficult to ensure with the ever increasing complexity and feature set of modern micros, all of which differ. All I was trying to do was suggest a different way of looking at things, but if you have already made your mind up, not much point really. Find a different solution, it's that simple. Just because you demand something won't make it magically happen, or that it's possible. The only people who have a financial muscle to ensure second source and decades supply guarantee are probably defence and avionics, but most of industry doesn't work that way, far too expensive. Best you can hope to do is choose a vendor agnostic architecture, like arm, for example, where there's chance you will be able to make at least some of the code common to several vendor's product... Chris I think I get the concept, but if there is no second source for a part, what's your solution ?. Only thing I can see to ensure continuity is to buy a product lifetime set of parts... Chris
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Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 00:38 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-07-08 09:11 +1000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 08:13 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-08 09:13 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-07 16:14 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 08:16 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 06:55 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-08 09:02 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-07-08 11:43 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 12:24 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-07-09 23:24 +0000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-07-09 17:13 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-10 08:09 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-09 23:39 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-10 08:59 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-07-08 14:57 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 07:01 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-08 16:07 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 07:35 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-09 14:16 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-09 11:04 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2020-07-09 14:32 -0400
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-09 11:47 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2020-07-09 15:22 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-07-09 15:35 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-09 18:41 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-07-10 16:01 +1000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-09 23:28 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-07-29 19:44 +0100
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 13:23 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-07-29 22:57 +0100
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 16:47 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-07-30 10:04 +1000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 17:46 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-07-30 11:04 +1000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 21:16 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-07-30 16:36 +1000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-31 11:26 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-07-30 01:11 +0100
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 17:53 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-07-30 19:05 +0100
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-07-31 00:21 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-04 20:40 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 14:36 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-08-04 22:32 -0400
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-08-05 15:26 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-07-30 08:31 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-07-30 07:53 +0100
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-07-30 08:10 -0400
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-09 18:40 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-10 09:09 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-10 01:41 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-10 13:47 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-07-11 13:41 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-07-08 17:33 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 09:31 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-07-09 14:30 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-07-19 18:38 +0000
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-07-19 23:11 +0300
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-07-19 13:43 -0700
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-08 13:19 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-07-09 08:00 -0400
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? dalai lamah <antonio12358@hotmail.com> - 2020-07-11 12:12 +0200
Re: Interrupts: can be lost? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-07-13 08:35 +0200
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