Re: pure C90 environment

From	James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: pure C90 environment
Date	2020-05-19 14:42 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ra19af$v1h$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <r8oglg$12r$1@dont-email.me> <ra0tpe$mic$1@dont-email.me> <ra0urs$718$1@dont-email.me> <ra11sj$ilb$1@dont-email.me> <ra17mb$6s5$1@dont-email.me>

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On 5/19/20 2:14 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 19/05/2020 18:35, James Kuyper wrote:
...
>> Because, as I understand it, only the actual creator of a work has a
>> right to hold a copyright on that work (unless the creator has
>> voluntarily transferred that right to someone else, including as a
>> common special case transferal to the creator's employer). That someone
>> has released their creative work to the public domain doesn't allow
>> anyone else to honestly claim to be the creator of that work, and
>> doesn't transfer that copyright to anyone else. Obviously, someone can
>> falsely claim to be the creator of a work, or can falsely claim that the
>> copyright was legally transferred from the creator to themselves - I'm
>> not talking about such cases. I'm asking about cases where the creator's
>> claim to be the creator, and his claim that he has never transferred his
>> own copyright to anyone else, have both been accepted as valid by the court.
> 
> You could well be both right and wrong here.  You could be right that 
> only the creator has a valid claim to the copyright even after having 
> discarded it with a "public domain" notice.  But it is naïve to think 
> that something could only be accepted as "valid" by a court in cases 
> where it truly /is/ valid.

Anything is possible once you've postulated that a court can
accidentally or maliciously fail to follow the relevant laws. That's
perfectly true, but it's equally true if you have a normal copyright or
set up a licensing system. It's just as true of a traffic ticket or a
murder charge. Because the possibilities when a court fails to follow
the law are open-ended, discussing those possibilities is fruitless.-

> ... For civil court cases, courts are supposed 
> to rule on the "preponderance of evidence" - they rule based on what 
> seems most likely.  The scope for getting this wrong is, I think, much 
> greater when someone has said "do what you want with this code" compared 
> to code that has a clear copyright message and license.

I disagree. A clear statement releasing a work into the public domain is
no more susceptible to misinterpretation than a clear copyright notice
or a clear licensing notice. It's only unclear statements that are
significantly susceptible, and that's just as true of a a copyright or
licensing notice.

>> It's only the possibility of being successfully sued for copyright
>> violation when you have adequate proof of the fact that you created it,
>> and have not transferred your copyright to anyone else, that seems quite
>> odd to me. Releasing to the public domain is not equivalent to
>> transferring your copyright to anyone else who wants it. As I understand
>> it, such transfers can only occur voluntarily, and only with the
>> recipient being specifically identified as such by the previous holder.
>>
> 
> If you explicitly say "this is public domain code", then the voluntary 
> part is covered, but the specific recipient is not.

Except, you haven't voluntarily transferred your rights, you've
voluntarily given them up. That's not the same thing. Those rights are
not "things" that can be left laying around to be picked up by other
people when you give them up.

Thread

pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-01 22:19 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 01:24 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 01:56 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:06 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment shi84516584@gmail.com - 2020-05-19 17:53 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:07 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:23 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment shi84516584@gmail.com - 2020-05-19 17:55 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2020-05-02 11:05 +0200
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:14 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-03 22:33 +0000
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 16:18 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-04 00:35 +0000
            Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 17:54 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 18:38 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 18:51 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 09:36 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 08:48 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 01:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 15:16 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 06:21 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 15:40 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 07:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 14:47 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 07:08 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 08:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-05-05 11:36 -0500
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 11:25 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 11:39 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 08:45 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:43 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 12:35 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 20:14 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 14:42 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 12:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 21:46 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 14:39 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:24 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-20 09:26 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 21:11 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 18:51 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 23:26 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-20 09:33 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 11:49 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 04:00 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 17:58 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 10:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 13:57 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 12:11 +0200
      Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 11:26 +0100
        Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 13:06 +0200
          Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 04:26 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 04:53 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:21 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 11:20 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:20 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 07:33 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:35 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 17:30 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 18:37 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 18:18 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 19:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 19:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-02 22:45 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 23:29 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 03:55 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-03 13:07 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 05:24 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 05:26 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-03 14:27 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 22:38 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 22:06 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 00:28 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 02:16 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-03 16:23 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 16:41 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 16:59 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-04 11:01 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 11:13 +0100
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 03:53 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 05:14 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 06:30 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 12:49 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-13 03:01 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-13 14:43 +0000
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 06:30 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 05:41 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 13:02 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-17 22:47 +0200
          Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 14:03 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 08:54 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 06:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 06:51 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 07:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-18 15:47 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 16:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 07:41 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 17:32 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 17:09 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 08:52 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-18 17:05 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 09:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:55 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-19 01:42 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 20:35 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:12 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 10:02 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 18:16 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:00 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 05:09 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 15:20 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 08:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 17:58 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 10:45 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 19:31 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 11:58 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 20:44 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:03 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 22:34 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 15:41 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 00:03 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 16:10 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 01:46 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 22:49 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 11:26 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 04:43 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 16:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 23:11 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 11:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 05:48 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 06:19 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 16:38 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 09:15 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 09:37 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 10:43 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-20 10:58 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 11:36 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 12:37 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 17:43 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 17:58 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 18:03 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 18:29 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 19:54 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 20:01 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 20:04 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 21:07 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 23:10 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 01:21 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-03-11 15:26 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:18 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 09:52 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 17:39 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:17 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-19 22:54 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-05-20 10:17 +1200
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-19 16:28 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:30 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-19 19:39 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 15:12 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:51 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:02 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 15:52 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 17:15 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 20:10 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 23:21 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:21 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:12 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:21 +0000
              Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:48 +0000
          Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:47 +0000
            Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:23 +0200
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 13:54 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 16:45 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 17:27 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 14:44 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 08:17 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 21:39 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 21:58 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 16:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 00:22 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 00:27 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:10 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 14:59 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 20:01 +0000
        Re: pure C90 environment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:25 +1200

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