Re: pure C90 environment

From	James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: pure C90 environment
Date	2020-05-19 12:35 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ra11sj$ilb$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <r8no0t$hev$1@z-news.wcss.wroc.pl> <ebdcfe90-81ef-4662-bb16-75818db7fd0c@googlegroups.com> <r8oglg$12r$1@dont-email.me> <ra0tpe$mic$1@dont-email.me> <ra0urs$718$1@dont-email.me>

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On 5/19/20 11:43 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 19/05/2020 17:25, James Kuyper wrote:
>> On 5/4/20 3:36 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> ...
>>> ...  In some 
>>> countries, I could take your "Public domain" software, put my own 
>>> copyright notice on it, and then sue you for copyright infringement if 
>>> you don't pay me a license.
>>
>> What you're saying sounds familiar, but also highly counter-intuitive.
>> Can you provide at least one specific example of a case where someone
>> who was not the creator of a work successfully sued the actual creator
>> for copyright infringement? I'm not talking about someone who falsely
>> claimed to be the creator; I'm talking about cases where the suit was
>> successful despite the court having accepted as valid the creator's
>> proof that he was the creator of that work.
>>
> 
> No, I can't.
> 
> Usually, code that is put in the public domain is small and either of
> little worth, or for functions that code be duplicated fairly easily.
> Basically, it's rarely worth fighting over.
> 
> But if you give out your code and say "I renounce my copyrights, and
> disclaim all ownership of this code", why would you think you have any
> protection against other people taking the code and doing whatever they
> want?

Because, as I understand it, only the actual creator of a work has a
right to hold a copyright on that work (unless the creator has
voluntarily transferred that right to someone else, including as a
common special case transferal to the creator's employer). That someone
has released their creative work to the public domain doesn't allow
anyone else to honestly claim to be the creator of that work, and
doesn't transfer that copyright to anyone else. Obviously, someone can
falsely claim to be the creator of a work, or can falsely claim that the
copyright was legally transferred from the creator to themselves - I'm
not talking about such cases. I'm asking about cases where the creator's
claim to be the creator, and his claim that he has never transferred his
own copyright to anyone else, have both been accepted as valid by the court.

> There is also the opposite situation.  In many jurisdictions, you cannot
> give away your rights - even if you write "public domain" on the code,
> you retain the copyright.  That means if you are on the receiving end of
> the public domain code, you have no explicit license to use the
> software, and no explicit rights.  The original copyright owner can
> change the rights or sue /you/ for using the software without a license.

That's a reason why, to allow the widest possible use of your software,
it might be necessary to license it. That part I understand.

It's only the possibility of being successfully sued for copyright
violation when you have adequate proof of the fact that you created it,
and have not transferred your copyright to anyone else, that seems quite
odd to me. Releasing to the public domain is not equivalent to
transferring your copyright to anyone else who wants it. As I understand
it, such transfers can only occur voluntarily, and only with the
recipient being specifically identified as such by the previous holder.

Thread

pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-01 22:19 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 01:24 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 01:56 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:06 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment shi84516584@gmail.com - 2020-05-19 17:53 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:07 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:23 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment shi84516584@gmail.com - 2020-05-19 17:55 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2020-05-02 11:05 +0200
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 02:14 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-03 22:33 +0000
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 16:18 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-04 00:35 +0000
            Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 17:54 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 18:38 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 18:51 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 09:36 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 08:48 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 01:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 15:16 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 06:21 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-04 15:40 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 07:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 14:47 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 07:08 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 08:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-05-05 11:36 -0500
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 11:25 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 11:39 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 08:45 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:43 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 12:35 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 20:14 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 14:42 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 12:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 21:46 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 14:39 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:24 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-20 09:26 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 21:11 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-05-19 18:51 -0400
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 23:26 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-20 09:33 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 11:49 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 04:00 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 17:58 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 10:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 13:57 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 12:11 +0200
      Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 11:26 +0100
        Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 13:06 +0200
          Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 04:26 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 04:53 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:21 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 11:20 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:20 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 07:33 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 16:35 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 17:30 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 18:37 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 18:18 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 19:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 19:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-02 22:45 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 23:29 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 03:55 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-03 13:07 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 05:24 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 05:26 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-03 14:27 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 22:38 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-03 22:06 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-04 00:28 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-03 02:16 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-03 16:23 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 16:41 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-05-04 16:59 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-04 11:01 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-02 11:13 +0100
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 03:53 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 05:14 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 06:30 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-02 12:49 -0700
  Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-13 03:01 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-13 14:43 +0000
      Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 06:30 -0700
    Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 05:41 -0700
      Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 13:02 -0700
        Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-17 22:47 +0200
          Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 14:03 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 08:54 +0200
              Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 06:11 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 06:51 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 07:12 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-18 15:47 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 16:25 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 07:41 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 17:32 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 17:09 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 08:52 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-18 17:05 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 09:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:55 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-19 01:42 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 20:35 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:12 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 10:02 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 18:16 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:00 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 05:09 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 15:20 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 08:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 17:58 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 10:45 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 19:31 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 11:58 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-19 20:44 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 13:03 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 22:34 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 15:41 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 00:03 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 16:10 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 01:46 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 22:49 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 11:26 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 04:43 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 16:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 23:11 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 11:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 05:48 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 06:19 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-05-20 16:38 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 09:15 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 09:37 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 10:43 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-05-20 10:58 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 11:36 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-20 12:37 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 17:43 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 17:58 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 18:03 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 18:29 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 19:54 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 20:01 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 20:04 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 21:07 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 23:10 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment "muta...@gmail.com" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 01:21 -0800
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-03-11 15:26 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:18 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-19 09:52 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 17:39 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:17 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-05-19 22:54 +0100
                Re: pure C90 environment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-05-20 10:17 +1200
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-19 16:28 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 17:30 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-19 19:39 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 15:12 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:51 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:02 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-05-18 15:52 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-18 17:15 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 20:10 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:18 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 23:21 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:21 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:12 +0200
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:21 +0000
              Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:48 +0000
          Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 19:47 +0000
            Re: pure C90 environment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-05-19 13:23 +0200
        Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 13:54 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 16:45 -0700
            Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-17 17:27 -0700
              Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 14:44 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 08:17 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-18 21:39 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 21:58 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 16:40 -0700
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 00:22 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-19 00:27 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-19 16:10 +0000
                Re: pure C90 environment Paul Edwards <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2020-05-18 14:59 -0700
          Re: pure C90 environment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-18 20:01 +0000
        Re: pure C90 environment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-05-18 13:25 +1200

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