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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #29538
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Custom CPU Designs |
| Date | 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <r7kbpr$btb$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <PZimG.97886$Kji.69961@fx15.am4> <r7ckn2$1pj$1@dont-email.me> <01a3df3f-c74f-4201-bfd2-a4570bbf19d0@googlegroups.com> <r7f4hf$18t$1@dont-email.me> <387cadbe-b7d5-48d3-bb88-5c567f4078c1@googlegroups.com> |
On 18/04/2020 23:21, Rick C wrote: > On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:57:55 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote: >> On 17/04/2020 19:48, Rick C wrote: >>> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 12:15:37 PM UTC-4, David Brown >>> wrote: >>>> On 17/04/2020 16:23, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>>> On 17/04/20 14:44, David Brown wrote: >>>>>> On 17/04/2020 11:49, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>>>>> On 17/04/20 09:02, David Brown wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> As you say, the XMOS /ecosystem/ is far more compelling, >>>>>>> partly because it has excellent /integration/ between >>>>>>> the hardware, the software and the toolchain. The latter >>>>>>> two are usually missing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Agreed. And the XMOS folk have learned and improved. With >>>>>> the first chips, they proudly showed off that you could >>>>>> make a 100 MBit Ethernet controller in software on an XMOS >>>>>> chip. Then it was pointed out to them that - impressive >>>>>> achievement though it was - it was basically useless >>>>>> because you didn't have the resources left to use it for >>>>>> much, and hardware Ethernet controllers were much cheaper. >>>>>> So they brought out new XMOS chips with hardware Ethernet >>>>>> controllers. The same thing happened with USB. >>>>> >>>>> It looks like a USB controller needs ~8 cores, which isn't a >>>>> problem on a 16 core device :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> I've had another look, and I was mistaken - these devices only >>>> have the USB and Ethernet PHYs, not the MACs, and thus require >>>> a lot of processor power, pins, memory and other resources. It >>>> doesn't need 8 cores, but the whole thing just seems so >>>> inefficient. No one is going to spend the extra cost for an >>>> XMOS with a USB PHY, so why not put a hardware USB controller >>>> on the chip? The silicon costs would surely be minor, and it >>>> would save a lot of development effort and release resources >>>> that are useful for other tasks. The same goes for Ethernet. >>>> Just because you /can/ make these things in software on the >>>> XMOS devices, does not make it a good idea. >>>> >>>> Overall, the thing that bugs me about XMOS is that you can >>>> write very simple, elegant tasks for the cores to do various >>>> tasks. But when you do that, you run out of cores almost >>>> immediately. So you have to write your code in a way that >>>> implements your own scheduler, losing a major part of the point >>>> of the whole system. Or you use the XMOS FreeRTOS port on one >>>> of the virtual cores - in which case you could just switch to a >>>> Cortex-M microcontroller with hardware USB, Ethernet, PWM, >>>> UART, etc. and a fraction of the price. >>> >>> Too bad the XMOS doesn't have more CPUs, like maybe 144 of them? >>> >> >> 144 cpus is far more than would be useful in practice - as long as >> you have cores that can do useful work in a flexible way (like XMOS >> cores). When you have very limited cores that can barely do >> anything themselves, you need lots of them. > > The point of the XMOS concept is to not have to do multitasking on a > single core. As soon as your task number exceeds the number of cores > you have to do multitasking on a single core. No one ever complains > about having too many resources. Agreed. That is why I have been pleased to hear Tom's description of how you can deal with multitasking within a core on XMOS, for when you have more tasks than cores. > > The design process for many small CPUs is not the same as a few > larger CPUs. Agreed. > But the point is it can be simpler, more like designing > hardware. Disagreed. Well, sort-of disagreed. /Some/ things can be easier on small and simple cpus - other things are harder. But when a cpu is small enough and limited enough, almost everything gets harder. And no, hardware design is /not/ simpler. It is /different/. > > Atmel had an FPGA with a simple logic element equivalent to a 3 input > LUT and FF (done with a small number of gates rather than the larger > LUT structure). It had relatively little routing, connecting logic > elements to adjacent logic elements almost as the only routing. The > theory was the simplicity of the logic elements meant you could have > a lot more of them for a given amount of real estate/$$$ so you could > afford to use them for routing. In practice they never kept up with > state of the art process technology, so this didn't pan out. But > that is the concept of the many small cores. You don't have to focus > on being highly efficient with your CPU resources since you have so > many. You equate "having more of resource X than you need" with "it's easy". That simply isn't the case. It doesn't matter how many cpus you have if they can't do what you need - or if it takes a ridiculous effort to make them do what you need. Ten thousand mice weigh less than a horse - they will eat less, provide redundancy, and have a much higher combined strength. Which do you think is better for pulling a cart? > > >> (Arguably that's what you have on an FPGA - lots of tiny bits that >> do very little on their own. But the key difference is the tools - >> FPGA's would be a lot less popular if you had to code each LU >> individually, do placement manually by numbering them, and write a >> routing file by hand.) > > Huh? Why can't any of that be automated in the many CPU chip? That's a very good question. And if it /were/ automated for the GA144, maybe it would be a much more useful chip. > Certainly the issue is not so important with only 144 processors, but > the same size chip would have many thousands of processors in a more > modern technology. I think the GA144 is 180 nm. Bring that down to > 15 nm and you have 15,000 nodes on a chip just 5 mm square!!! That > will require better tools for sure. Tools are critical. I think the biggest failing of the GA144 is the tools. With a completely different philosophy of toolset, maybe the device would become a realistic and exciting new architecture. > > Some of your use of language is interesting. "lots of tiny bits that > do very little on their own". That sounds like the way people write > software. They decompose a large, complex design into lots of tiny > routines that individually do little on their own. How can you > manage all that complexity??? Yes, I think the Zeno paradox must > apply so that no large program can ever be finished. That certainly > happens sometimes. In normal (serial, or multi-threaded) software, the programming language you use lets you combine the bits. It checks at least some aspects of how they fit together, it lets you use the different bits from where you want, it lets you split them up or combine them, write big bits and small bits. The same applies to FPGA design with Verilog, VHDL, or higher level languages. The GA144 - judging from the application notes and examples - requires you to figure out the tiniest details and split things up manually. It is a level of micromanagement beyond what is needed for assembly programming. It's the tools. >> >> Yes - you have a Cortex-A cpu that can handle high throughtput, >> perhaps with several cores, combined with a Cortex-M device that is >> more deterministic and can give more real-time control. > > That's also the idea to CPUs in FPGAs. > Yes.
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Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-15 20:51 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 11:59 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 13:10 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:16 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:01 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 17:13 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 18:10 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:37 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:08 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 10:49 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 15:23 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:49 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 15:06 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:08 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:13 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:24 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:00 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-20 14:32 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 23:55 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:14 +0800
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:51 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 18:06 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:53 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 10:11 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-19 13:19 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 11:33 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:26 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:59 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:37 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:02 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:15 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 15:02 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:03 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:44 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:20 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:57 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 12:38 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:58 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:27 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:36 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 14:02 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 06:15 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:25 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 16:56 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 12:42 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:16 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:10 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:09 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:07 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 13:09 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 21:28 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-21 20:29 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-21 18:10 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 09:54 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 13:19 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 18:09 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:03 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:16 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 10:48 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 16:57 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:21 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 14:50 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:12 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 10:09 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:31 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:42 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-18 00:43 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 17:07 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:11 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 12:17 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 13:22 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 14:48 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 15:27 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:53 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 17:03 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 19:39 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 21:25 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:27 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:58 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-04-21 19:41 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:01 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:21 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-19 20:53 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 14:47 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:11 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-19 18:31 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 20:32 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 07:46 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 00:33 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 11:01 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:44 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 19:57 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:02 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:56 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 16:34 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:57 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-21 15:20 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 08:26 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:09 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:00 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:28 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:24 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:18 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 11:45 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-23 17:47 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-21 15:35 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-04-19 18:52 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:42 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-20 22:59 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:01 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-21 10:23 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 03:47 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-22 09:26 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-22 22:06 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 14:18 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-23 22:35 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:20 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 18:16 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:06 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 20:17 +0300
Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:28 +0000
Re: Custom CPU Designs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-04-23 04:59 -0400
Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-20 17:27 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:58 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs pault.eg@googlemail.com - 2020-04-21 01:00 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 19:21 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:18 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 07:40 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 12:28 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 13:50 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 14:19 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:33 +0100
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 11:29 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:42 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 12:35 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 20:01 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 14:54 +1000
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 23:54 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:38 +0200
Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:13 -0700
Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 18:02 +0200
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