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Groups > comp.lang.c > #147739
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: One works, the other doesn't? |
| Date | 2019-11-07 20:04 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <qq1pr1$ukp$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (14 earlier) <ddKwF.118673$ZO5.23938@fx26.am4> <qq0np1$cgc$1@dont-email.me> <izTwF.228690$LT2.137023@fx21.am4> <qq1bed$109$1@dont-email.me> <d9ae9cfe-1630-48ad-8fb8-eff878edcb53@googlegroups.com> |
On 07/11/2019 17:37, jadill33@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 9:58:31 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote: >> On 07/11/2019 12:51, Bart wrote: >>> On 07/11/2019 09:22, David Brown wrote: >>>> On 07/11/2019 02:13, Bart wrote: >>> >>>>> So why was it made fast? >>>> >>>> It doesn't do much (in comparison to bigger compilers), so it can be >>>> small and fast. In particular, as far as I know it doesn't do any kind >>>> of inter-procedural analysis, which is something that takes a lot of >>>> time and resources in a compiler but is very important for both >>>> optimisation and static analysis. It does not handle multiple >>>> languages, multiple targets and multiple devices within a family - so it >>>> does not need the layers of abstraction in between stages. >>> >>> So if using TCC to develop C programs for x86, x64, ARM and ARM64, it's >>> no good because it doesn't support 996 other processors, and it isn't >>> part of a product chain that can also compile C++, Ada and Fortran? >> >> I said the limited features are one of the reasons tcc can be small and >> fast. >> >>> >>> It sounds to me like, if that is how you can streamline a compiler, then >>> what's the problem? >>> >>>> As I have said before, I think it is impressive how much TCC can do in >>>> such a small code space and run time. >>> >>> (For 'impressive', look at LuaJIT, which is a 225KB executable that >>> appears to be a complete Lua implementation with a tracing JIT compiler. >>> C source is a nightmare though...) >>> >>>> But it is not the tool to use for >>>> development. >>> >>> Yes you keep saying that. But not everyone is you with your very >>> exacting requirements. >>> >>>>> TCC compiles so fast that even for big projects Makefiles may not be >>>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> That only applies if you don't know what Makefiles are for, and how >>>> project management works. Or if you only write "hello, world" programs. >>> >>> My projects aren't that big, but they're a long way from being hello, >>> world programs. Yet they don't need makefiles. The biggest one is built >>> like this: >>> >>> C:\qcc>mm qq >>> Compiling qq.m to qq.exe >>> >>> Which processes 56 files totalling 56,000 lines. 'mm.exe' is a bare >>> compiler. While, getting back to C, I can build Seed7 like this: >>> >>> C:\seed79\src>bcc @s7 >>> .... >>> >>> where s7 is simply a list of the modules that are needed. This will also >>> work with gcc and lcc (depending on whether compiler-specific options >>> are inside that @ file). >>> >>> Makefiles are not the only fruit. >> >> We are talking about C, not your private language. Non-negligible >> projects need some kind of build process. Makefiles are one way to >> express these - there are other ways. The point is that "the compiler >> is so fast you don't need a Makefile" is a complete misunderstanding on >> the purpose of Makefiles - they are not just about the efficiency of >> incremental builds. > > You can go even further, non-negligible projects need some kind of > *repeatable* build process, independent of the whims of individual > developers. Bart's perspective appears to be one completely insulated > from the problems that come with multi-staff driven development. In > my work, developers are not the final builders of the end-product, > it's configuration management, and they know nothing of picking > compiler options or IDE configuration, nor do they want to know. We are a small company, so programs are usually written and build by the same person. But I fully agree with repeatable builds. I have programs that I wrote twenty years ago, and several computers and OS's ago, which I can still build on current machines with "make" and get bit-perfect identical binaries. For any major project I work on, when I put together the tools, compilers, libraries, etc., that I will need, I am not ready to start the main coding until I can check out the source and type "make" with identical results on my Windows system, my work Linux system, my home Linux system and my Linux laptop. > > When I came on, the old procedures were a badly formatted document > with a laundry list of manually written commands for source control > and building an application whose components were written in multiple > languages using multiple IDEs. Through a combination of Makefiles and > batch scripts, I was able to reduce the human error component of people > who are not developers to mis-specifying the version number and target > platform. The amount of baby-sitting I have to do now is practically > zero. It typically only breaks when a new version of a compiler or tool > is introduced. > I consider the compiler as part of the project archives. > It wasn't free though, the batch script is about 2000 lines and the > Makefile/Ant configs are couple 100 and it took me about 2-3 months > to create from scratch. Now you rotate in a new configuration > management person, and the time savings are much more real. > > [snip] > > Best regards, > John D. >
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One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-03 17:39 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-04 00:20 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-04 06:53 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-04 09:45 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 10:34 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-11-05 07:45 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 10:53 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:04 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 11:29 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:24 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:06 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:31 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:43 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:54 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 01:35 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 15:16 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 11:11 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 01:59 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 11:35 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 08:57 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:24 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:59 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 14:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 00:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-07 02:08 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 15:43 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-07 16:15 -0600
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-10 20:01 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-11 15:26 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-11 12:37 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:21 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:39 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:47 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 08:14 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:30 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:04 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 01:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 01:38 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-10 08:32 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 16:09 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 11:33 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-30 14:20 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-01 12:15 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 10:07 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 10:58 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 10:05 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 09:52 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 00:56 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 01:00 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 11:32 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 23:11 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 23:22 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 01:04 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 01:13 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 10:22 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 11:51 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 15:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 16:34 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-07 12:40 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 17:57 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-07 21:14 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-08 09:45 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-08 09:56 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-08 19:47 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-09 09:14 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-08 19:10 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-09 12:24 +0000
Like an old married couple... (Was: One works, the other doesn't?) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-11-08 20:25 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 19:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 19:31 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 08:56 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 20:06 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 09:21 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 21:20 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 10:28 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 22:35 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-09 09:22 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jadill33@gmail.com - 2019-11-07 08:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-07 08:52 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jadill33@gmail.com - 2019-11-07 09:52 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 20:04 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 19:50 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 18:05 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:28 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 19:02 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:21 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 18:36 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-05 12:51 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 18:35 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-11-05 17:53 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-06 09:33 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-11-05 13:36 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-07 10:17 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-07 12:19 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-07 18:59 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-08 00:02 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-20 10:54 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-20 11:14 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-20 13:22 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 15:54 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-20 08:42 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-21 18:56 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-22 01:07 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-22 15:27 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 15:47 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-07 18:41 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:39 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 11:47 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:54 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:00 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:02 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-09 02:09 -0500
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