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Groups > comp.lang.c > #147738
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: One works, the other doesn't? |
| Date | 2019-11-07 19:58 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <qq1pgf$sb0$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (14 earlier) <ddKwF.118673$ZO5.23938@fx26.am4> <qq0np1$cgc$1@dont-email.me> <izTwF.228690$LT2.137023@fx21.am4> <qq1bed$109$1@dont-email.me> <KIXwF.401247$7ei.266197@fx36.am4> |
On 07/11/2019 17:34, Bart wrote: > On 07/11/2019 14:58, David Brown wrote: >> On 07/11/2019 12:51, Bart wrote: > >>> Makefiles are not the only fruit. >> >> We are talking about C, not your private language. > > My second example was for C. > >> Non-negligible >> projects need some kind of build process. Makefiles are one way to >> express these - there are other ways. The point is that "the compiler >> is so fast you don't need a Makefile" is a complete misunderstanding on >> the purpose of Makefiles - they are not just about the efficiency of >> incremental builds. >> >> If I want fast compilation for incremental builds, I can use ccache - it >> will tear through C files in a fraction of the time tcc takes, when >> re-compiling the same code (and the same options). I still need a >> Makefile, because build procedures are important. > > I believe the point of that feature is that it is so fast, that you > don't need to bother with makefiles which specify dependencies so that > it can work out what needs compiling and what doesn't. And neither do > you need a tool like 'ccache', which I understand gets its speed by > avoiding doing any work as much as possible. I use make to get the build procedure I need - building the right parts of the code in the right way and the right order. It is a place to specify and document compiler switches (as you know, I use many - regardless of the compiler), along with other tools in the process. That can include support for "make test", "make release", "make sim", or whatever else you need for the kind of project you are working on. I think good dependency management is very useful, but I'd use make (or a similar tool) even if it didn't avoid unnecessary re-compilation - a correct, documented and repeatable build process is more important than a fast one. And avoiding doing unnecessary work is better than doing unnecessary work quickly. > > With build-from-scratch times of a fraction of a second, depending on > project size and machine speed, there's no point. > I thought you were in favour of being as fast as possible, and that "even faster" is better than "fast enough" in your book? >> Yes, it is impressive. I used to be able to juggle 5 balls - that's >> impressive too. Neither is a useful trick for programming work. > > In my work which is based around whole-project compilation, it /is/ useful. What is the point of whole-project compilation? (I appreciate your preference for single source code distribution - I don't agree that it is important, but I understand why you want it.) For most people, whole-program compilation is about optimisation and/or cross-unit static analysis. There is a point in using LTO or "-fwhole-program" in tools like gcc and clang. But no point for a compiler that doesn't do inter-procedural optimisations and analysis. > >>> Imagine that every time you wanted to run gcc, you had to build gcc from >>> scratch first. >>> >> >> Imagine if you had to rebuild your car's engine every time you filled up >> with petrol. What is your point here, other than giving our >> imaginations a little exercise? > > That's pretty much what happens with every scripting language. Why are > /they/ rebuilding their engines every time? They are not. I thought you knew how scripting languages work. > >>> tcc is a good match for my compiler, because they are both very fast. If >>> using gcc, it's like hitting a brick wall as soon as it starts gcc, even >>> using -O0. Eg (mu.ma is a 25Kloc compiler in my language): >> >> The requirements for a compiler handling generated code are very >> different from what you want from a compiler as a development tool. > > You're getting close to acknowledging that small, fast compilers may > possibly be of utility after all. > > I think you'll find I have often said there was a place for them. But that place is not for normal software development. Your selective memory is playing tricks on you again.
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One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-03 17:39 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-04 00:20 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-04 06:53 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-04 09:45 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 10:34 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-11-05 07:45 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 10:53 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:04 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 11:29 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:24 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:06 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:31 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:43 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:54 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 01:35 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 15:16 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 11:11 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 01:59 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 11:35 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 08:57 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:24 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:59 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 14:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 00:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-07 02:08 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 15:43 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-07 16:15 -0600
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-10 20:01 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-11 15:26 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-11 12:37 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:21 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:39 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 07:47 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-07 08:14 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:30 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:04 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 01:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 01:38 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-10 08:32 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 16:09 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 11:33 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-30 14:20 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-01 12:15 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 10:07 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 10:58 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 10:05 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 09:52 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 00:56 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 01:00 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 11:32 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 23:11 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 23:22 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 01:04 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 01:13 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 10:22 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 11:51 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 15:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 16:34 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-07 12:40 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 17:57 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-07 21:14 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-08 09:45 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-08 09:56 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-08 19:47 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-09 09:14 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-08 19:10 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-09 12:24 +0000
Like an old married couple... (Was: One works, the other doesn't?) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-11-08 20:25 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 19:58 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 19:31 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 08:56 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 20:06 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 09:21 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 21:20 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-08 10:28 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-07 22:35 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-09 09:22 +1300
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jadill33@gmail.com - 2019-11-07 08:37 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-07 08:52 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jadill33@gmail.com - 2019-11-07 09:52 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 20:04 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 19:50 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 18:05 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:28 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 19:02 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:21 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 18:36 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-05 12:51 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 18:35 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-11-05 17:53 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-06 09:33 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-11-05 13:36 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-07 10:17 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-07 12:19 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-07 18:59 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-08 00:02 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-20 10:54 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-20 11:14 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2019-11-20 13:22 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 15:54 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-11-20 08:42 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-21 18:56 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-22 01:07 +0000
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-22 15:27 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 15:47 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-07 18:41 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:39 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-05 11:47 -0500
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:54 +0100
Re: One works, the other doesn't? luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:00 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:02 -0800
Re: One works, the other doesn't? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-11-09 02:09 -0500
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