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Re: C Translator

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On 29/03/2019 13:47, Bart wrote:
> On 29/03/2019 09:58, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/03/2019 03:34, Bart wrote:
> 
>>> I recently got pulled up for calling C a trumped-up assembler, that's
>>> why I mentioned it.
>>
>> That's because C is in no way a "trumped-up assembler".  And in terms of
>> its structure and syntax, it doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to
>> assembler - and thus the comparison makes no sense at all in this
>> context.
> 
> Yes it does.

No, it doesn't.

I'm not sure whether you think this because you have little experience
and understanding of assembly, or because you have little experience and
understanding of C.  Or maybe it is because you write your assembly code
in a very limited fashion - as you do for your C code - and thus the
structures resemble each other vaguely.

For other programmers, assembly and C are not remotely similar languages.

> 
> I realised that some of problems I faced in translation in doing a full
> translation of C to my language, are similar to those of trying to
> translate ASM to HLL.
> 
> Some are doable by looking at patterns or idioms that match one in the
> target language (eg. a for-loop that does a simple A to B iteration),
> others are just too chaotic (eg. 'switch' with jumbled-up case labels).

I'll happily agree that mixed-up switch and loop statements is going to
be a pain to translate.  It is the kind of feature that was very nice in
the old days of weaker C compilers, and could be used for some efficient
implementations of certain kinds of code.  But with modern compilers,
you are better letting the compiler handle this kind of thing based on
simple, clear code, and such mixes are going to be difficult for the
compiler to optimise well.

> 
> Another big one is to do with types; C plays fast and loose with arrays
> and pointers; the target language doesn't. Again, this is like ASM which
> doesn't have a type system at all.

Repeating the same shite several hundred times does not make it true.  C
has arrays, and it has pointers.  You might not like the way arrays are
handled in C - the system has advantages and disadvantages compared to,
say, Pascal's handling of arrays.  But it works fine, and is not "fast
and loose" - there are clear rules if only you could be bothered to
learn them.

> 
> Yet another is to do with macros (macros are very common in ASM):
> 
>    #define A 144
>    #define B 144
>    #define C 144
> 
> rather than have 144 all over the output code, and not know which 144
> it's referring to, I'd rather have A, B or C. But if I suppress macro
> expansion, it causes other problems (mainly in things like '#if
> A==144'). Actually, I would probably have fewer problems translating ASM
> in this case!
> 

What a shame - life is so hard for you.  How nasty all these C people
have been, designing a language without any consideration for poor Bart
and his troubles.

Back here in reality, translating between significantly different
languages is an extremely difficult task, especially if you are aiming
for efficiency, or aiming for an output that is clearly readable and
keeps the structure of the original - and even worse if you want both.
This is not a problem with C, or the way people write C - it is the
nature of the problem.

> The answer would have been to use something like 'enum' for such integer
> constants, which have fewer such problems. But '#define' for named
> constants is still used everywhere.
> 

C has several ways of making constants, with different tradeoffs.  I
agree that enum can often be a neater method, but it is not always a
suitable choice.  And you don't get to choose how other people write
their code.

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C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-28 16:16 +0000
  Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 00:01 +0000
    Re: C Translator Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-03-28 20:31 -0500
    Re: C Translator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-28 19:02 -0700
      Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 02:34 +0000
        Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-29 10:58 +0100
          Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 12:47 +0000
            Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-29 14:57 +0100
              Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 14:57 +0000
                Re: C Translator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 15:08 -0700
                Re: C Translator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 15:42 -0700
              Re: C Translator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-03-29 15:16 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 15:30 +0000
                Re: C Translator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 14:47 -0700
        Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-29 10:42 +0000
          Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 11:57 +0000
            Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 13:04 +0000
            Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-29 14:58 +0100
              Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 14:29 +0000
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-29 20:06 +0000
            Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-29 20:02 +0000
              Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-29 21:10 +0000
                Re: C Translator nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2019-03-30 04:52 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-30 11:03 +0000
                Re: C Translator nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2019-03-30 16:17 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-30 18:36 +0000
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-30 20:32 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-30 22:44 +0000
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-31 03:23 +0100
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-31 12:39 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-31 15:07 +0100
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-31 16:21 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-31 21:19 +0200
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-31 20:58 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2019-03-31 20:33 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-31 22:06 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-31 22:37 +0100
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-31 23:33 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-01 02:35 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-01 11:33 +0200
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-31 23:54 +0200
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-01 02:16 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2019-04-01 06:42 +0000
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-01 11:35 +0200
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-01 16:54 +0100
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-01 21:01 +0100
                Re: C Translator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-01 13:41 -0700
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-01 22:40 +0100
                Re: C Translator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-01 16:25 -0700
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-02 00:50 +0100
                Re: C Translator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-01 17:45 -0700
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-02 11:28 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 13:18 +0200
                Re: C Translator Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-04-02 19:15 +0000
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-02 21:14 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-02 13:28 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 10:49 +0200
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-02 01:58 +0100
                Re: C Translator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-01 19:13 -0700
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-02 11:13 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 13:49 +0200
                Re: C Translator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-04-02 05:15 -0700
                Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-02 14:50 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 16:06 +0200
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 16:05 +0200
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-02 00:11 +0100
                Re: C Translator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-02 10:35 +0200
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-04-02 00:06 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-31 21:36 +0100
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-31 16:32 +0100
              Re: C Translator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-30 00:37 +0000
                Re: C Translator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-03-30 01:00 +0000
                Re: C Translator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 03:37 -0700
                Re: C Translator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 06:15 -0700
        Re: C Translator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-03-29 07:49 -0700

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