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Groups > comp.lang.c > #142248
| From | Manfred <invalid@add.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations |
| Date | 2019-03-22 18:15 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <q73589$eob$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (1 earlier) <q6m2u6$mho$1@dont-email.me> <A4AjE.133834$y65.133545@fx44.iad> <8gAjE.142392$tK1.4950@fx28.am4> <q70f9c$ar7$1@gioia.aioe.org> <7164203b-a47f-4120-a6d0-c3a6b659a738@googlegroups.com> |
On 3/21/2019 6:04 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 12:48:54 PM UTC-4, Manfred wrote:
>> On 3/17/2019 11:55 PM, Bart wrote:
[...]
>>> How about just allowing a label to be statement by itself? You should be
>>> able to do:
>>>
>>> {s1; goto L1; s2; s3; L1:}
>>>
>>> without requiring L1 to be followed by a dummy statement.
>>
>> As Tim Rentsch pointed out, this is not backwards compatible, so too
>> much impractical for a language like C, especially considering that the
>> alternative of adding an extra ';' is not too difficult (once you know it).
>
> I do not understand this limitation people impose upon C.
>
> There is no problem maintaining backward compatibility when adding
> new features ... if those features are not enabled by default, but
> are enabled via some switch.
>
> You can add new features to a language which must be enabled to be
> used. Once enabled, only then it would break backward compatibility.
The C standard does not interact with compiler switches. This is clearly
an intentional choice of the committee that wants to keep the language
specification to the code text only - a choice that makes sense to me.
The standard allows for some optional features, enabled by preprocessor
definitions. This implies that functionality provided by the standard
library can be made optional, but features of the language itself cannot.
So, for this case, the semantics of a C label, this would not work.
>
> But to not add any new features (and not particularly this one, but
> more of an "in general" concept) because they may break backward
> compatibility ... I think that's a wrong philosophy, a wrong way of
> thinking, and a wrong decision.
>
> New features SHOULD be added. And if there's legitimate concern
> about it breaking non-trivial amounts of code, then it should be
> added as a feature which must be enabled. But, new features should
> be made available to developers in a language over time.
>
>> Otherwise, I think this would have been a smart solution. Probably
>> better than making declarations into statements, which would require
>> much more work on the general scoping rules.
>>
>> This problem apparently follows from labels being neither statements nor
>> declarations, but instead entities of their own slapped into the
>> language to pair their ASM counterparts.
>> Today one may say they were not thought well enough in the beginning,
>> but considering the status of CS in the '70s it would have been probably
>> hard to foresee this kind of implications at the time, and hey, they
>> served the purpose so far.
>
> I've observed an entire philosophy in many people of the C language
> that seems to be 100% backward from the way things should be. I
> don't know what the cause of that is, and I don't remember seeing
> it any place else except in some aspects of UNIX/Linux's design.
Due to the huge amount of C code running out there, and the kind of
environment C has been adopted for - systems programming, industrial
applications, safety critical controls etc. - C has become a very
conservative language.
I think this conservative attitude is simply motivated by the language
users to /require/ C to be primarily stable and backwards compatible.
This is a very practical need, not much a matter of philosophy.
In other words, any breaking change in the language would be extremely
expensive, both because of the amount of existing and running code out
there, and because of the sensitive nature of a lot of such code -
imagine the amount of code review, re-testing and validation needed for
a flight control component implemented in C, in case of a change in the
language; if this had to be re-executed only because of some breaking
change that is so 'cool', the committee would probably receive a few
heated e-mails - and rightfully.
>
> It's like this whole backward ecosystem rose out of K&R and Stallman
> and other early adopters which pushed to make it all public, and it's
> persisted that way from their initial seeds.
>
> The idea of creating a language which operates on minimums ... it
> does make sense in the 70s, 80s, and probably even 90s, but not in
> the 00s, and certainly not in the 10s or 20s.
>
> Those seeds need to be supplanted with new long-term seeds which do
> make real sense.
>
> The existing C compilers and code which exist can continue to be
> compiled, and new features can be added, and changes can be made,
> without breaking anything historically.
>
> The biggest ones I'd like to see is the removal of the requirement
> of having forward declarations. Our computers today are fast enough
> we do not need that extra workload for the developer any longer.
>
> Another one for C would be the introduction of the basic class. It
> is a beautiful way to write code, though it could use some changes
> in syntax to make it more beautiful (especially for accessor methods).
>
> Such simple augments to save man-weeks of work per developer per
> year if properly employed with inheritance and the like.
There are plenty of other languages that are much more dynamic. Luckily
today's programmers have lots of alternatives to choose from.
>
> If only...
>
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[ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-03-17 14:45 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2019-03-17 17:25 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-17 10:59 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-03-17 14:16 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-03-17 18:43 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-17 22:55 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 01:37 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-17 19:46 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-18 08:41 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 11:20 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 04:39 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 12:08 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 05:26 -0700
labels and declarations and debugger breakpoints "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 05:40 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 17:25 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-03-18 19:11 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-19 01:36 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 12:31 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 19:57 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 13:09 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 21:09 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 16:03 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 23:49 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 16:53 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 18:03 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-18 13:16 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-03-18 12:30 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-18 13:41 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 06:54 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 07:05 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 09:07 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-18 06:46 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 07:25 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-03-21 17:48 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-21 10:04 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-21 10:34 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-03-21 20:19 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-21 14:29 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 10:15 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 13:58 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 15:10 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 15:31 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-22 09:22 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 09:28 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <invalid@add.invalid> - 2019-03-22 18:15 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 10:51 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-22 11:31 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-03-23 17:43 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-23 13:36 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-03-23 17:37 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-25 09:18 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-03-22 12:59 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-22 14:03 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-03-23 12:44 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-03-24 10:10 -0500
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-03-23 17:48 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-03-25 11:32 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-03-21 22:22 -0500
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-03-22 17:45 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-22 11:13 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-03-23 18:20 +0100
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-23 11:57 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-03-25 10:58 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-25 13:17 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-17 16:16 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-03-17 19:29 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-17 16:49 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-03-17 19:51 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-17 17:41 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-03-17 22:53 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-03-17 21:08 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-17 21:40 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-03-18 05:03 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 02:30 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-18 06:32 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-03-18 16:06 +0000
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-03-17 22:19 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-03-17 20:07 -0400
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2019-03-17 12:37 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 11:00 +0800
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 22:43 +0800
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-18 08:00 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 13:11 +0800
Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-03-19 05:27 +0000
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 14:40 +0800
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 04:39 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 19:44 +0800
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:11 -0700
Re: Use of goto in high-level C programming "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 20:13 +0800
Re: Use of goto in high-level C programming fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:42 -0700
Re: Use of goto in high-level C programming "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 20:44 +0800
Re: Use of goto in high-level C programming Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2019-03-20 08:16 +0200
Re: Use of goto in high-level C programming "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-20 19:16 +0800
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:13 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:56 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 06:30 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 06:54 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 07:12 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 12:03 -0700
Re: Telling Fred where to go... (Was: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations) fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 13:33 -0700
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:17 -0700
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 20:23 +0800
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 05:40 -0700
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 20:46 +0800
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 06:30 -0700
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 21:36 +0800
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? fir is a sexy shemale <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 07:08 -0700
Re: from programming to religion and then.... sex? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-03-20 19:16 +0800
Re: [ On topic, amazingtly ]: labels and declarations John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2019-03-19 14:58 -0700
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