Re: if cargo blocks

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: if cargo blocks
Date	2018-12-31 18:09 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<q0digv$35r$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <q0919m$9gi$1@dont-email.me> <g8qnarFbi9qU1@mid.individual.net> <20181230061224.2ec7fd6a@assi.fritz.box> <q0akdp$74k$1@dont-email.me> <20181231052107.7492859a@assi.fritz.box>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 31/12/2018 05:21, Ralf Goertz wrote:
> Am Sun, 30 Dec 2018 15:23:53 +0100
> schrieb David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>:
> 
>> On 30/12/2018 06:12, Ralf Goertz wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 29 Dec 2018 19:04:28 -0700
>>> schrieb rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:
>>>    
>>>> Rather like the grammarian’s damnation of ending a sentence with a
>>>> preposition it resulted in some of the most convoluted messes I've
>>>> ever seen.
>>>
>>> Although I have been communicating in English for quite a while
>>> now, I heard about that damnation only rather recently. Does that
>>> mean you are not supposed to say "What are you looking for?" but
>>> should say "For what are you looking?" instead?
>>
>> Yes, that is correct.
> 
> Hm, grammar girl seems to have a different opinion: https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/ending-a-sentence-with-a-preposition
> 

That article seems to be saying two things - both of which are 
reasonable, IMHO.  One is that it is common usage - and therefore part 
of the language - to end a sentence in a preposition when the 
alternative is particularly awkward.  The other is that in some cases, 
the preposition is part of a phrase, rather than joining two things.

What you really should avoid is prepositions that are either 
superfluous, or leave information unsaid.  For example, "I hadn't read 
about that before".  The "before" means nothing here - before what?  The 
sentence would make more sense as simply "I hadn't read about that", or 
alternatively with more information, such as "I hadn't read about that 
before yesterday".


> BTW (to answer Stefan's SCNR), this is exactly the reason why I asked my
> question here in a programming newsgroup. Here, there are many
> intelligent native speakers whose focus is probably not grammar. Their
> gut feeling about their language is quite a valuable input for me to
> develop my own gut feeling. Although I must admit that I will never have
> as strong a gut feeling for English as I have for my own language.
>   
>>> The former /feels/ correct because I hear it
>>> very often, I guess more often than the latter. But then I also very
>>> often hear "What do you got?" in American TV shows which feels like
>>> a horrible abuse of language…
>>>    
>>
>> It is a matter of philosophical debate whether the kind of
>> grammatical abuse found on American TV shows is ignorance, laziness,
>> or the evolution of language.
>>
>> "To boldly go where no man has gone before" - is it bad grammar, or
>> has it changed the language?
> 
> It took my quite a while to figure out what could be objectionable in
> that sentence. It seems to be the rule not to split an infinitive, a
> rule about which I had no idea two days ago. (Apart from "Manner, space,
> time makes your English fine" I don't remember being taught any style
> rule at school.) Interestingly, for me both ending with a preposition
> and splitting an infinitive feel very "English" probably because there
> is no way you could use either construct in a German sentence.
> 

English grammar is based on a mix of Germanic and Latin grammar, with 
some of its own variations.  In both German and Latin (AFAIK) 
infinitives are formed by verb endings - there is no way to "split" 
them.  This may be the origin of the rule in English.

Thread

if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 10:42 -0500
  Re: if cargo blocks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-29 17:26 +0100
    Re: if cargo blocks Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-29 16:32 +0000
  Re: if cargo blocks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-29 16:56 +0000
    Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 12:34 -0500
      Re: if cargo blocks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-29 23:49 +0000
        Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 18:52 -0500
          Re: if cargo blocks Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-30 00:12 +0000
          Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-29 19:04 -0700
            Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2018-12-30 06:12 +0100
              Re: if cargo blocks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-30 15:23 +0100
                Language (Was: if cargo blocks) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-12-30 15:39 +0000
                Re: Language (Was: if cargo blocks) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-30 11:23 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2018-12-31 05:21 +0100
                Re: if cargo blocks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-31 18:09 +0100
                Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-31 12:22 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2019-01-01 12:04 +0100
                Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-31 11:50 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2019-01-01 11:43 +0100
                Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2019-01-01 14:27 +0100
                German grammar (Was: if cargo blocks) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-01-01 14:17 +0000
                Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 11:04 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-01 10:38 -0800
                Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 10:57 -0700
                DDR Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2019-01-01 21:18 +0100
                Re: DDR rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 16:18 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-01-01 16:30 -0800
              Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-30 11:09 -0700
                Re: if cargo blocks Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2018-12-31 05:43 +0100
                Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-31 12:06 -0700
              Linguistics. Re: if cargo blocks Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-01-01 16:27 -0800
                Re: Linguistics. Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 22:30 -0700
                Re: Linguistics. Re: if cargo blocks Louis Krupp <lkrupp@nospam.pssw.com.invalid> - 2019-01-02 04:18 -0700
          Re: if cargo blocks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-30 02:07 +0000
            Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 21:59 -0500
  Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-29 13:57 -0700
    Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 16:03 -0500
      Re: if cargo blocks Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-29 21:32 +0000
      Re: if cargo blocks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2018-12-29 16:06 -0700
        Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 18:15 -0500
          Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:32 -0800
            Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:34 -0800
              Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:38 -0800
              Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:40 -0800
                Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:45 -0800
            Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 18:36 -0500
              Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:42 -0800
                Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:45 -0800
                Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 15:54 -0800
                Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 18:58 -0500
                Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 16:01 -0800
    Re: if cargo blocks "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-29 13:36 -0800
  Re: if cargo blocks "I Set My Girlfriend's Pantyhose on Fire" <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 13:16 -0800
    Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-29 16:32 -0500
  Re: if cargo blocks Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-30 13:00 -0800
    Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-30 16:12 -0500
      Re: if cargo blocks Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-30 13:31 -0800
        Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-30 16:45 -0500
          Re: if cargo blocks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-30 22:17 +0000
            Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-30 17:22 -0500
              Re: if cargo blocks "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-30 20:25 -0800
  Re: if cargo blocks Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-03 09:50 +1300
    Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-02 15:54 -0500
      Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-02 16:29 -0500
        Re: if cargo blocks mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-03 00:44 -0800
          Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 08:17 -0500
            Re: if cargo blocks mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-03 05:40 -0800
              Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 09:15 -0500
            You are so full of shit (Was: if cargo blocks) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-01-03 13:42 +0000
            Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 12:27 -0800
        Re: if cargo blocks Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-04 11:11 +1300
          Re: if cargo blocks "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2019-01-03 14:37 -0800
          Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 17:48 -0500
          Re: if cargo blocks fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 14:59 -0800
      Re: if cargo blocks mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-03 00:44 -0800
        Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 08:19 -0500
          Re: if cargo blocks mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-03 05:43 -0800
            Re: if cargo blocks "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-01-03 05:51 -0800
          Re: if cargo blocks "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2019-01-03 13:22 -0800
      Re: if cargo blocks Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-04 11:10 +1300

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