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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #479590

Re: What is a field?

From Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: What is a field?
Date 2018-12-11 01:37 +0000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <pun4ch$1mb8$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <4a996036-4e7b-45ac-8200-97b93bb24a83@googlegroups.com> <pumnme$126h$2@gioia.aioe.org> <125ffacc-e657-4e3e-9fb7-91394c473b7e@googlegroups.com> <pumrcn$158a$1@gioia.aioe.org> <aafa9c2d-6716-45e6-8efb-4df872fc2c30@googlegroups.com>

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JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 3:03:55 PM UTC-8, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:00:50 PM UTC-8, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>> kenseto <setoken@att.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 1:31:59 PM UTC-5, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:04:04 AM UTC-8, kenseto wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 5:20:16 PM UTC-5, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> kenseto <setoken@att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 2:56:22 PM UTC-5, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> kenseto wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-5, Michael Moroney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kenseto <setoken@att.net> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why did Weinberg gave pop-science talk of a field different than what is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the true meaning of a field?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was trying to explain a science concept to non-scientists. Obviously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it didn’t work for you.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It works for me very well.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You think so because you are not competent enough to make a proper assessment.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It led me to formulate Model Mechanics,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Your crackpot idea is not a formulation, it is a pipe dream or worse.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the most successful theory of physics.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Show your Nobel Prize in Physics or shut up.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ken is beyond recognizing that point. He’s too heavily invested. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ken’s stance is essentially this: “I, Ken Seto, have an idea of what a
>>>>>>>>>> physical theory should be like. What physicists think a physical idea
>>>>>>>>>> should be like is irrelevant. What I know is that every theory produced by
>>>>>>>>>> physicists so far doesn’t matter measure up to MY idea of a physical
>>>>>>>>>> theory. They don’t make sense, they don’t use plain language, they’re
>>>>>>>>>> complicated, they involve non-intuitive ideas. None of those traits should
>>>>>>>>>> belong to a good physical theory. On the other hand, MY theory completely
>>>>>>>>>> satisfies everything I think a theory should be. It is therefore in MY EYES
>>>>>>>>>> the most successful theory ever. And if physicists don’t agree about the
>>>>>>>>>> value of what I’ve produced, that’s their loss.”
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Idiot....current theories are based on fantasy and non-existing
>>>>>>>>> mathematical objects. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That’s not true, Ken. I get that you are not familiar with many of those
>>>>>>>> things, and that you hate the idea of new things you didn’t know about.
>>>>>>>> However denying that they exist, just because you don’t like them, isn’t
>>>>>>>> really a sign of a sane person. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don’t like it because it failed to give a quantum theory of gravity.
>>>>>>> And GR failed to incorporated into quantum physics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And what makes you think this is not the fault of quantum theory?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My theories are based on real material objects....that’s why they are
>>>>>>>>> superior theories.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I understand, Ken, that your very limited view of reality only contains
>>>>>>>> material things. However, as I’ve pointed out to you, for four hundred
>>>>>>>> years — over five times your entire lifetime — physicists have known that
>>>>>>>> reality consists of more than material things. It can’t be reduced to the
>>>>>>>> smaller list of things you’re familiar with. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It doesn’t matter if it is 1000 years.....the fundamental of
>>>>>>> current physics is wrong.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You cannot form a valid opinion of that sort. By definition only a person
>>>>>> who is an expert in physics can make sweeping statements about the validity
>>>>>> of physics. Just change your hobby, find yourself some other way to
>>>>>> boost your ego. This science thing will get you absolutely nowhere if you
>>>>>> refuse to study.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jan
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anything that depends on extra dimensions other than the observable three
>>>>> dimensions is wrong. 
>>>> 
>>>> So you are saying that any theory that relies on something that can’t be
>>>> seen or touched or directly observed by a human observer with everyday
>>>> senses is wrong. 
>>>> 
>>>> So, since you can’t observe atoms directly, atomic theory is wrong?
>>> 
>>> It's always the same thing at the end of the day with those types:
>>> "whatever I don't understand is irrelevant anyway". Or, even more
>>> simply: "No matter what, everyone else is wrong".
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Jan
>>> 
>> 
>> “Only things that make sense to me can be right. Because I am a genius and
>> nothing can be beyond my immediate grasp.” 
> 
> Also known as "My lack of knowledge allows my intuition to bloom and perform 
> unencumbered".
> 
> --
> Jan
> 

Also known as “All that is irrelevant. Point is I spent months and hundreds
of dollars if not thousands to publish a book. I deserve attention just
because of that.”

-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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Thread

What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-07 06:08 -0800
  Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-07 16:58 +0000
    Re: What is a field? paulcardinale0@gmail.com - 2018-12-07 11:58 -0800
    Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 06:05 -0800
      Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 14:13 +0000
  Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-07 11:39 -0800
    Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 06:28 -0800
      Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 15:35 +0000
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 10:33 -0800
          Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 10:43 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 19:15 +0000
      Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-08 17:52 +0000
        Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 18:21 +0000
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 10:26 -0800
          Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-08 18:37 +0000
          Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 20:18 +0100
            Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 19:56 +0000
              Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 21:51 -0800
              Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 08:20 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 12:44 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:20 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 08:04 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 10:31 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 13:33 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 13:53 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 06:16 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-11 14:41 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 22:00 +0000
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 14:13 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 23:03 +0000
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 15:46 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 01:37 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 16:26 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 07:32 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:53 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 07:27 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 07:27 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-11 16:00 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:56 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 06:51 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 18:42 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 18:09 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 20:18 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:53 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 07:21 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 18:32 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 13:20 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 21:46 +0000
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 10:47 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-14 05:35 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-14 15:13 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-14 15:22 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-15 14:05 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 23:27 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-17 08:24 -0800
                Re: What is a field? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-17 08:31 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-17 09:51 -0800
                Re: What is a field? mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-12-17 10:06 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-18 02:23 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-18 07:41 -0800
                Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-18 12:43 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-19 14:17 +0000
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-19 15:46 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:04 -0500
            Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:30 -0500
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 08:12 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 17:19 +0100
          Re: What is a field? Rich Carpenter <lcug@kigcohc.pa> - 2018-12-09 00:32 +0000
      Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 10:42 -0800
        Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 19:15 +0000
          Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:29 -0500
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 06:18 -0800
              Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 07:26 -0800
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 08:11 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-10 17:07 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 22:00 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 07:14 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 18:42 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-12 04:56 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:53 +0000
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 07:54 -0800
          Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 07:58 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:20 +0000
            Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:00 -0500
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 18:14 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 10:59 -0500
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 08:51 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 18:32 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 13:23 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 21:46 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 23:36 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 20:06 -0500
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-14 12:21 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-14 15:16 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 02:14 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 19:53 -0500
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-14 12:21 +0000
              Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 10:38 -0800
  Re: What is a field? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-12-07 12:48 -0800
    Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-07 12:51 -0800
      Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 12:22 -0800
        Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 22:05 +0100
          Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 16:24 -0800
        Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:46 -0500
          Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 22:41 -0800
            Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 14:08 -0800
              Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 14:44 -0800
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:36 -0500
                Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2019-01-13 12:16 -0800
        Re: What is a field? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 21:56 -0800
          Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 22:54 -0800
            Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:22 -0800
              Re: What is a field? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 12:35 -0800
  Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-07 22:01 +0100
    Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 06:42 -0800
      Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 15:35 +0000
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 10:21 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 19:15 +0000
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 14:17 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 22:42 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 14:58 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-09 01:22 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 13:07 +0000
            Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:26 -0500
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 13:07 +0000
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 10:27 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 19:15 +0000
          Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:23 -0500
            Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 13:07 +0000
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 14:19 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:25 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 07:54 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-10 17:15 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:41 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:14 -0500
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 18:18 +0000
      Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 20:09 +0100
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 14:28 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 22:42 +0000
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 14:56 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-12-09 00:06 +0100
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 00:13 +0000
                Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:44 -0500
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 09:19 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:22 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 07:50 -0800
                Re: What is a field? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-12-10 17:09 +0000
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:41 +0000
            Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:37 -0500
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 13:07 +0000
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 08:40 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:22 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-10 08:07 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:56 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 07:07 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 18:42 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-11 18:19 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:53 +0000
                Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-13 07:54 -0800
                Re: What is a field? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-13 18:32 +0000
          Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 01:24 +0100
            Re: What is a field? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 23:42 -0500
            Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-09 10:08 -0800
              Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:36 +0100
        Re: What is a field? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-12-08 14:43 -0800
          Re: What is a field? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 11:51 +0100
  Re: What is a field? carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-12-07 13:42 -0800
  Re: What is a field? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-15 19:51 -0800

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