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Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor

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On 10/12/18 5:42 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:ppm2oo$mdd$1@dont-email.me a post to which I've already replied
> once, which he's answered in turn.  I try to integrate answers to
> both his posts in this reply.
> 
>> On 10/10/18 3:19 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> 
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>>> news:ppi81l$e2u$1@dont-email.me:
> 
>>>> (Spoilers below, naturally)
> 
> Now in abundance.  Really, don't read on if you haven't read the book.
> 
>>>> On 10/5/18 7:57 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> 
>>> [<Princess Holy Aura>'s status as a magical girl novel helps explain]
> 
>>>>   But a
>>>>> whole lot of other stuff is weakly developed if at all.  We're told
>>>>> that somewhere inside the transformed protagonist's mind there's a
>>>>> discrete bit representing her former male self, reacting in fairly
>>>>> predictable ways to milestones in her female life.  But we're also
>>>>> told that this character ultimately has no desire whatsoever to do
>>>>> as the book's setup demands, and go back to male life when the
>>>>> apocalypse is averted.  Huh?
> 
> This was careless reading and writing on my part.  The opposition I
> highlight here is real, but not as clearcut as this phrasing at all.
> Specifically, "discrete bit" is how the author writes casually, but
> when he focuses on it it's always to deny that bit's reality.  And
> "no desire whatsoever" is a little too strong.
> 
>>>>        Steve/Holly changed during their tenure. To a small extent, this is
>>>> because there was, as Silvertail mentions, a "template" of the Magical
>>>> Girl that gives the nascent Holly Owen/Holy Aura an actual foundation of
>>>> ... well, "essence of teenage girl", that Steve-Before-Book didn't have.
> 
>>> OK, small extent.  So - as I give you credit for making *usual* in
>>> the book - the magic doesn't dictate the personal here.
> 
> Chapter 65, Silvertail:  "Holly is just as much Steve's creation as
> she was mine, or that of her predecessors.  More so".  Not really a
> small extent, but not decisive.
> 
>>>>        The book leaves open whether Steve had any hidden TG elements; it
>>>> wasn't necessary to delve into that one way or the other.
> 
> Um.  Silvertail says in chapter 22:  "If Steve had possessed a desire
> to be a woman, it would be less of a sacrifice."  To what extent is
> Silvertail an unreliable Speaker of Truth?

	Silvertail can't read hidden desires, only expressed ones. As I said, 
if Steve had any HIDDEN TG elements that's not explored. Yes, 
technically it might weaken the spell a bit, but breaking repression and 
such is itself a stress, so it probably balances out.


> 
>>> I remember that on first reading I felt something mildly strange
>>> about his interaction with Dex before and after the game, FWIW.
>>> No idea whether you wanted that vibe.  This didn't recur, as best I
>>> remember, on second reading.
> 
> Nor third.  Beats me what I was thinking.

	It's possible there's a tiny amount of unintended subtext in their 
interaction due to the fact that I as author knew where that would 
eventually go.

> 
>>>>        Another major factor is that while Steve had gaming friends, he had
>>>> very few PEERS. He was essentially alone in his life, his parents gone,
>>>> all his friends from childhood dead or dispersed, and his gaming group
>>>> the only outside contact he had. He was a nice guy, and he knew as
>>>> nodding acquaintances a lot of people around him, but he was in an
>>>> isolated, dead-end existence. The promise of "well, the magic will make
>>>> your life better if this ends well" is nice, but that's a vague future
>>>> promise even if you believe it.
>>>>
>>>>        Her existence as Holly, OTOH, was very real, immediate, and more
>>>> diverse and colorful than his existence as Steve.
> 
>>> Is a spouse a peer?  Seems to me that depends on the couple's views
>>> on gender relations, and we're given plenty of evidence that Stephen
>>> Russ would say yes to that question.
> 
>>       A spouse would be a peer. He has no spouse, though, so there's no
>> connection there.
> 
> Well, you say elsewhere (snipped below, actually) that you *decided*
> he shouldn't have a spouse.  Granted, you didn't have room for one.
> But it's not as though the question were irrelevant just because it
> doesn't apply to the character in front of us.

	I consider questions of "here's another character he could have been" 
irrelevant, because that includes ones where he's potentially ANYTHING. 
There are infinite numbers of things that he isn't; you can only read 
the book about what he is.


> 
>>> This is the core of my concern - this is essentially auctorial
>>> confirmation of what I listed as possibility g) in a previous post,
>>> there described as Holly having relationships Stephen couldn't have.
> 
> Which I said, in that post and subsequently,  I found problematic.
> So even though I was completely wrong in saying this was just a
> "possibility", when in fact chapter 52 is entirely about it, I get to
> keep at this.
> 
>>> I'm going to tackle this in two ways in this post.  First, abstractly,
>>> so that'll be here.
> 
> [Snipping my words "manager" and "thumb on the scales", among others.
> Huh, OK, snipping all of this, including my additional words "the
> negative consequences of remaining unmarried", and your bit about
> Steve originally having been married.]
> 
> Oh, but one thing about "thumb on the scales".  I infer from the post
> you devoted to that, that you're at least somewhat OK with what I
> described as explanation f) for the protagonist's "decision":
> 
> | It's saying it's a magical girl story, so of course the decision.
> 

	To an extent, certainly true.


>>>>> But I
>>>>> think the book *does* have a genuine flaw, at the end, when the
>>>>> darkness proper to the protagonist's decisions is undermined by their
>>>>> lack of clear motivation. [2]
> 
>>> In the post you're quoting, I waffled by putting it in plural:
>>> "decisions".  Later I said the evidence that I was talking about a
>>> "decision" at all was weak, but my interlocutor said it was a
>>> reasonable word choice.
>>>
>>> Anyway, what I mean is Holly's expressed preference for staying a
>>> girl after the apocalypse is averted, followed by her action that
>>> (almost certainly unintentionally) makes that preference
>>> unavoidable, followed, of course, by the magical loose end that
>>> enables the preference to happen (once again, in this book, neatly
>>> subordinating the magical to the personal).  Her strong hostility
>>> toward her (original) male form *is* dark, and should have dark
>>> underpinnings; it doesn't.
> 
>>       I don't see it as dark but more conflicting. Holly's found a really
>> pretty wonderful life that she did not expect, especially with the
>> initial strain of becoming Holy Aura and abandoning Steve for very
>> practical reasons. After all the time -- very, VERY intense time with
>> strong emotional components -- with her new friends,
> 
> This is, to a certain extent, careless phrasing on your part.  Much
> of the hostility I point to is already there after a relatively short
> time being friends with Seika Cooper.
> 
> Chapter 22 again:  "The voice he used to accept sounded completely
> wrong in his ears.  The way his body felt--slow, heavy, ponderous--
> was actually repellent."
> 
> This is *before* the other three (though not before the new game) and
> *before* Dex even joins the game, let alone becomes her boyfriend.

	Ahh, but *AFTER* she has spent MONTHS in the body of Holly Owen. The 
body dysphoria is separate from his/her emotional connection to the 
friends he/she meets.


> 
>> she's developed
>> extremely strong bonds with them-- stronger and more emotionally
>> powerful than likely any bonds he's ever had with anyone outside his
>> parents.
> 
> I'll get back to this below.
>   
>>       It's only DARK if you think that it's BAD that a person can change
>> their goals and self-image.
> 
> Well, um, how to put this?
> 
> Stephen Russ dies.
> 
> Or at least that's going to be the experience of a bunch of people
> whose existence you seem determined to deny.

	What people?
	Oh, those people -- I see you describe the people in question later. 
See later for that discussion.

	For those close to her, that isn't a problem. Even Holly accepts that 
she IS Steve. It's rather like saying that my friend Dan died because he 
transitioned to be a woman named Tori. They have the same memory thread 
and basic identity. All the other people in the book either (A) never 
really knew Steve, so while the loss of her ability to take on his form 
is sad, they see Holly as the original, or (B) understand fully that 
she's really Steve, just a new version.

> 
> The book is the story of two lives competing, because only one can be
> real, and that isn't even affected by the magical out at the end.
> It's got tons of sugarcoating, but that is a fundamentally dark theme.

	?? No, the book is the story of a conflict between good and evil, and 
the attempt to make the best, most moral choices in that conflict.

	In the end, Steve and Holly ARE NOT COMPETING. They are 100% in tune 
with what needs to be done and they're both just fine with it. Both of 
them expect to be obliterated -- and "both of them" is a miswriting, 
because it's really just two ... *personas*, two masks that they use to 
face the world. The SELF is still there, untouched, just changed by 
experience to see things differently.

> 
> Granted, there's a lot else going on in the book, not all of which is
> dark, but this aspect of it is.
> 
>>> I don't see much alternative to doing what I did above again
> [the stuff I snipped this time]
> 
>>> So OK.  In the book, I'm not sure of Holly's age.  She's a freshman
>>> in high school in an area that has junior highs.  I thought junior
>>> high went to 9th grade; so is Holly in 10th?  But let's pretend she
>>> really is a freshman, and fourteen (the back cover's "twelve" can be
>>> ignored).
> 
> The book actually shouts "fourteen" early on, especially in chapter 2.
> I thought I'd come up with that on my own, but no, it was there.
> 
> [me as a freshman]
>>> but this was a rich social life compared to much
>>> that lay ahead.  If we go on to when I was fourteen (I was two grades
>>> ahead), it was even richer, because by then girls who interested me
>>> were talking to me (though not dating me).
> 
>>       This is not my experience of high school, nor that of most of the
>> people I knew. I had very, very few friends. I did not socialize with
>> anyone who did not share a number of interests with me. My richest
>> social life lay much farther ahead. (I DID use the terror of
>> homosexuality on occasion; threatening to kiss guys bothering me would
>> get them to flee)
>>
>>       Part of the irony of Holy Aura for me is that she finds her high school
>> life ATTRACTIVE, when it was a period of life I wouldn't have gone back
>> to if you paid me. OTOH, compared with Steve's life... that's a
>> different choice.
> 
> Yeah, well.
> 
> When I was thirty-five I lived in Madison, *where I had no friends*.
> 
> I wouldn't have gone back to high school if you'd paid me then, nor
> would I now - when, by the way, I'm not sure I have any friends in
> Seattle.  But I had significantly richer social lives in my freshman
> and junior years than I had in Madison, or have here now.
> 
> Which of us is more like Stephen Russ?
> 
> I don't believe his emotional history is as drab as you think it is.

	Steve's situation was constrained by his resources, his setting, and 
time. Gaming was his one contact with other people that he knew HOW to 
find other people. He was kind and personable once you got to know him, 
but his connection to "people at work" wasn't the same. He was the nice 
guy in the neighborhood who everyone LIKED, but he wasn't quite in the 
social circle for various reasons that would be something of an essay 
itself since the reasons will be different for different groups

	Out-of-universe, of course, it's important not to put him in the 
position of having to have a dozen close friends and/or lovers because 
that's not the conflict the book is about.

> 
> [me in my thirties]
>>> There's a line in <A Civil Campaign> that I first read during those
>>> years - "Once past his school days, Tien had never made a new good
>>> friend."  It isn't actually true of me, but it worried me a lot,
>>> around then.
> 
> Possibly out of courtesy, nobody has noticed a pretty obvious subtext
> to this story, which is that I'm much better at losing friends than I
> am at making them, and this has been true for decades.  I actually
> have made one good friend even since becoming homeless six years ago -
> but have lost him, too.
> 
>  From my point of view, except perhaps for the "decades" part, Stephen
> Russ can only be convincing if he shares this talent for alienating
> people.  But he loses it as soon as he becomes Holly Owen, and in any
> event he's much more effectively concerned about other people than
> I've ever been, so I don't think he ever had it.  So the more I think
> about it, the less convincing he becomes.
> 
>>> Which brings me to ...  Already in my 20s, I'm pretty sure I'd
>>> noticed that my next older brother, my elder sister and I all have
>>> essentially the same face.  Probably if my twin sister had lived,
>>> she'd have had it too.  In women, it's a pretty face.  In men, not
>>> so much, and of course my *height*, never over 5'3" (160 cm) didn't
>>> help.  What I'm getting at is that as I reached higher and more
>>> embarrassing ages at which to retain one's virginity, it became ever
>>> more obvious that if I'd been born a woman (or even, for that matter,
>>> gay), in this one increasingly important respect I'd have been a lot
>>> better off.
> 
>>       Except that it's not better off for women in our society (especially if
>> you go back decades),
> 
> What part of "in this one respect" was unclear?  I'm describing
> something that much preoccupied me at that time; I assure you I
> thought about the disadvantages of womanhood too.
> 
> That said, we're talking about the period from 1997 to 2007.  Why
> didn't you also point to the difficulties of being a gay man at that
> time?  One thing I'm saying here is that I thought I'd find more
> people interested in me among roughly 1% of men than among roughly
> 99% of women.  This necessarily involved thinking about what it'd be
> like, having one's field of possibilities shrunk by well over 90%.
> That's a difficulty of being gay that hasn't changed.
> 
>> and it seems you accepted more of the cultural
>> norms of THAT period. Mine was much more "sex comes with marriage, not
>> before" and I was a virgin until I married.
> 
> It would never have occurred to me that one could answer a paragraph
> in which the writer confesses to having been a forty-year-old virgin
> with, of all things, slut-shaming.  I'm impressed by your creativity
> and audacity.
> 
> (Though not your clarity.  Just which period is "THAT period" ?)


	I have NO idea where you get "slut-shaming" from. I said, in effect, "I 
never saw that there was a problem with being a virgin", not "if you 
aren't a virgin you must suck". I never absorbed the idea that I OUGHT 
to have sex. Did I WANT to have sex, sure, thought about it a lot. But 
it wasn't, as you seemed to be saying, a Bad Thing that I was a virgin. 
I was somewhat envious of those who HAD lots of sex, but it wasn't 
something that then made me feel that there was either something wrong 
with THEM, OR something wrong with ME.

	Given your description, I guess you're probably at least as old as I 
am, so "That Period" would be well before "now". My impression is that 
the issue is less of an issue today.

> 
>>> This isn't much like Stephen Russ's story.  Mine included college;
>>> his ?didn't.
> 
> This now seems pretty clear.  It's also reasonably clear that Holly
> Owen's could include college, unless she's too busy as Holy Aura.

	Yes, there's no reason she couldn't eventually go to college. Assuming 
she ages. That would kinda suck, if it turns out the magic locks you 
into being a teenage girl for all time. That would make it a challenge 
to try to go forward with your life.

> 
>>> His may have included the military; mine certainly
>>> didn't.
> 
> As previously noted, his *did*.  So let's go into that.
> 
> The book appears, in chapter 7, to begin in June of a year fourteen
> years after 2001, so either 2015 or perhaps 2016.  It explicitly ends
> soon after March 15, 2017, much of a single school year having passed
> in between; that obviously argues for 2016 as the start.
> 
> Holly had been Steve for thirty-five years, so he was born in 1980 or
> 1981.  Assuming he enlisted right out of school, that'd be 1998 or
> 1999.  If you're correct that his tour of duty would be four years,
> that gets us past September 11.  Did the Air Force do stop-loss at
> that time?
> 

	Interesting point. Don't know. Too late to change it if so. The real 
Steve, of course, had this as his background but that was a couple 
decades earlier.

>>> I sought all sorts of social hobbies; he focused on one.
> 
> Two - he also acted in amateur theatre.

	Though that was when he was younger. He didn't have time or energy for 
much other stuff as he was always on the edge of poverty.


> 
>>> But I think I'd need a lot of evidence to refute this before I'd stop
>>> believing it:  that unmarried men in their 30s who live near
>>> minimum wage, all other things equal, have worse social lives than
>>> well-off teenaged girls.  In general, across the board.  My life, the
>>> lives I've observed, my reading, all say so.  Hell, my life says even
>>> a poor teenaged boy has a richer social life than a poor thirtyish
>>> unmarried man.
>>>
>>> In other words, I think the comparison the character makes is rigged.
> 
> It turns out it's rigged both ways.
> 
> Steve Russ is not the complete non-entity the first page suggests,
> after all.  He probably has Air Force buddies, though as usual these
> are scattered around the land.  He knows people from work and the
> theatre, though you tell us none have become friends.  He has
> relatives with whom he's spent enough time that he could help their
> "kids deal with their issues".  Hell, what if the Ochoas knock on his
> door to invite him to dinner?
> 
> Are none of those people going to try to contact him?  Ever?
> 
> Does he just disappear from the point of view of his high school
> reunion committee?  Of the VA?  (He's had enough injuries that he
> probably knows people at the VA Hospital by name.)
> 
> If the book had ended the way its characters expected, he could have
> been among those who died in the battle, and maybe there'd even be a
> body; or it could've ended according to plan, and Holly vanishing
> instead.
> 
> But as things are, you've created a can of worms for yourself, which
> you seem to think doesn't exist.

	Oh. That's something that exists, but I don't have to WORRY about it. 
Until I write the next book.

	That's obviously a major issue for Steve/Holly to decide how to deal 
with. But I don't have to deal with it in THAT book, only in any sequels.

	Until the very end, of course, it WAS NOT AN ISSUE... because once the 
mission was over, everything was going to re-set. Steve would be back in 
his apartment but things would start going right for him, he'd go on 
with his better life, and so on.

	NOW Steve's permanently (??) gone (physically) and Holly has not yet 
(since it was only a week or so by the end of the book) started to 
really grasp the MASSIVE set of problems that their assumption of "don't 
worry, it's going to reset" is handing them.

	Another obvious problem: Their identities aren't going to hold up 
forever. They assumed they only had to evade investigators for a year or 
less. Now they're stuck, and the OSC is ALREADY THERE. If they haven't 
found out their IDs, they almost certainly will soon.


> 
>>> So the book's advice to people like the earlier me boils down to "be
>>> a rich girl instead".  This is why I'd rather the protagonist had
>>> decided on pretty much *any* other grounds.
> 
>>       There's no advice in the book at all.
> 
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

	I guess. To me advice is if I say to you "you should do this" in a 
realistic context. So if I write a self-help book, I'm giving you 
advice. If I write a story set in a world clearly with little relation 
to this one, not so much, because the conditions in that world just 
don't apply to this one. The only advice PHA offers is "try to do the 
right thing".


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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<Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 23:57 +0000
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-05 23:53 -0700
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 09:42 -0500
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 09:38 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-06 12:28 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 13:43 -0700
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-06 11:46 -0600
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-07 06:09 -0700
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-07 08:34 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 22:13 +0000
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 10:02 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2018-10-08 11:28 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 18:31 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-08 14:23 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 19:40 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 16:33 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-09 13:55 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 18:56 -0400
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 08:47 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:19 +0000
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:42 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-11 00:13 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 06:55 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 04:25 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:23 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:59 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 20:17 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-12 19:20 -0600
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 02:50 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-13 05:46 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 14:55 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-13 09:29 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 15:21 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-13 11:41 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 21:50 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:29 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-14 23:24 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-14 20:01 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-15 02:05 -0600
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-15 09:18 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:45 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-10-17 22:54 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:32 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-10-16 07:13 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-16 14:13 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 23:53 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:31 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-16 22:43 -0600
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-10-17 05:03 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-17 06:54 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-10-13 13:21 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 21:48 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-13 16:01 -0600
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:42 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 18:16 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 23:48 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 20:00 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 00:36 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 22:04 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 00:21 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:31 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 04:33 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 16:29 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-19 18:12 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-20 09:45 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-26 02:30 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-26 12:35 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-28 23:03 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-30 08:18 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-31 01:12 -0600
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 02:33 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 10:53 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:27 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 13:54 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:41 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +1300
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:34 +1300
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-31 16:12 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-01 11:55 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-01 16:12 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-01 17:43 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-11-02 16:47 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 10:18 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:47 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-11 14:57 +0000
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 18:15 -0400
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 19:17 -0500
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-16 20:27 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 20:12 -0500

csiph-web