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Groups > comp.lang.c > #136552

Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)
Date 2018-10-10 17:26 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <ppl5mr$5sc$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <Zv8vD.110260$OM2.43558@fx37.iad> <ppj4pc$aoj$1@dont-email.me> <PFmvD.59808$un2.54146@fx14.iad> <ppl0d8$5b1$1@dont-email.me> <pSnvD.25280$eN2.24344@fx07.am4>

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On 10/10/18 16:17, Bart wrote:
> On 10/10/2018 14:55, David Brown wrote:
>> On 10/10/18 14:56, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>> On 09/10/18 22:50, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>>>> On 09/10/18 17:23, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <ppiei3$n9l$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> David Brown  <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> I don't think the first version is unclear, but I don't see any...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because you're not a moron.  You're many things, but a moron
>>>>>>> you're not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why, thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is corrected to use "if" rather than "switch").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.  Switch is better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A switch is better when a switch is appropriate.  It won't work
>>>>>> here, so
>>>>>> it is not better.  We are branching on a value being less than,
>>>>>> equal to
>>>>>> or greater than zero - a switch won't do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> $ grep fork */cmd/*/*.c | grep switch
>>>>
>>>> These do not match the original code, which tested for pid being less
>>>> than, equal to or greater than 0.  You can't do that with a switch.  I
>>>> am not particularly familiar with the details of fork() - it is not a
>>>> standard C call, and for all I know it could return a range of negative
>>>> error values.
>>>>
>>>> I still see no advantage of "switch" over "if" for such code -
>>>> unless it
>>>> is viewed as such a common idiom that the familiarity is an advantage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, the point here was not "what is the best way to write a
>>>> call to
>>>> fork", but to look at where it might be useful to use the result of an
>>>> assignment expression, how the code code be re-structured to avoid it,
>>>> and whether one version is "better" than the other.
>>>>
>>>
>>> fork() returns three values:
>>>
>>>    -1  (an error occurred)
>>>     0  (You are executing as the child)
>>>    >0  (You are executing as the parent, and the return value is the
>>> child pid).
>>>
>>> switch is _perfect_ for this.
>>
>> So is "if".  (Let's assume the "if" check is for -1, rather than < 0.)
>>
>> I have seen that people use "switch" in this case.  I have seen people
>> claim that "switch" is perfect for the job, or that it is better than
>> "if".  I have yet to see the slightest hint of an indication of /why/
>> "switch" would be better for the purpose.
>>
>> IMHO, "if" is clearer.  It involves shorter source code, especially if
>> you have a bracketed scope for each branch/case.  It avoids any risk of
>> forgetting the "break".  It is likely that it gives at least as good, if
>> not better, object code.
>>
>> What am I missing?  /Why/ do you think "switch" is better here?
> 
> - Because the expression being tested is only evaluated once

That is also the case when you have a variable in the "if" statement.

> 
> - Because to achieve that with if/else if, you may need to create a
>   dummy variable to store the result of the control expression, which
>   is the compiler's job not yours

The "pid" variable is often needed for forks, and it is no hardship to
add it.  It is the compiler's job to ensure the run-time costs of the
variable are negligible.

> 
> - Because if each branch is more than one statement, if/else NEEDS {...}
>   (switch block are delimited by the next case)

Your switch blocks also need braces if you have local variables and
don't want them to outlive the block or crash with variables in the
other cases.

And your switch blocks need a "break" at the end - I much prefer { } as
delimiters than a "break" as an end delimiter.

> 
> - Because if you need more cases, scale is more easily expanded
> 

I fully agree with using switches in many situations.  But we are
talking about a specific situation, which will not be scaled.

> - Because, even with the dummy variable, you have to write its name more
>   than once, an extra source of errors if you were to mistype it

If you have trouble spelling "pid" more than once, I'd suggest that
using "switch" instead of "if" will not solve your problems.

> 
> - Because with if/else if, you also have to write ==, <, <= etc, another
>   thing that you can get wrong.

Again, this should not be an issue.

> 
> The only downside of switch, is requiring that break, which is just a
> very poor design choice in the language.
> 

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Thread

>< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-08-13 12:53 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 16:05 -0400
  Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 13:46 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:19 +0300
    Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-08-14 06:16 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator bart4858@gmail.com - 2018-08-14 07:50 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 16:59 +0200
          Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-08-14 10:46 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 20:03 +0200
              Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-08-14 11:37 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 21:16 +0200
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:32 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator bart4858@gmail.com - 2018-08-14 16:24 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-15 11:32 +0200
        Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-01 07:46 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 05:20 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 13:58 +0100
              Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 14:08 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:16 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-02 15:35 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:43 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 10:51 -0700
              Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:08 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 15:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 10:52 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 17:57 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:27 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 11:52 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 20:48 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 15:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 13:26 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:36 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 13:47 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:14 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:37 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 22:02 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 17:16 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:25 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 10:52 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 14:29 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 05:52 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-03 21:31 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 16:47 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 03:43 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 22:47 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 04:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 20:44 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 11:53 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 05:15 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 13:48 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 10:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 17:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 11:01 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-04 22:15 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 16:19 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 21:42 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 15:01 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 23:59 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 09:54 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 18:03 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 21:08 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-05 20:31 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2018-10-05 15:59 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 21:18 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 03:51 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 12:19 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 19:49 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 12:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 14:19 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 06:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 16:30 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 13:17 +0200
                C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 13:07 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 14:27 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-10 00:05 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 02:03 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-11 01:05 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 02:09 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 12:39 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-11 16:24 +0100
                Re: C idioms scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 15:55 +0000
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 09:42 -0700
                Re: C idioms Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 19:23 +0200
                Re: C idioms jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-11 11:11 -0700
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 12:05 -0700
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 17:53 +0100
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 10:38 -0700
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-12 00:14 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 19:26 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 16:38 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 15:23 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 20:31 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 20:18 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:11 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-09 20:50 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:58 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 22:34 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:10 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-09 14:45 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:07 +0200
                Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 07:56 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 10:32 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-10 13:44 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:52 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-10 17:47 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:18 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 15:22 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 23:58 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-10 07:51 -0600
                Re: Hmmm... gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:53 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:21 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:57 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-10 12:29 -0400
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:07 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-09 14:50 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:13 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:56 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 15:55 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 15:17 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 14:49 +0000
                Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:59 +0000
                Re: Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 16:09 +0100
                Re: Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-10-10 17:29 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 16:01 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:29 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-10 17:55 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 17:11 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-10 23:15 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:16 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 23:23 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:31 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 15:32 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:24 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 10:52 +0200
                Re: C idioms Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-10 09:59 -0600
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:26 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 14:48 +0000
                Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 15:20 +0000
                You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 15:28 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:23 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 13:22 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 15:58 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 14:17 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 16:42 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 16:53 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 20:11 +0200
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:20 +0200
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:15 -0700
                Re: Return values of fork() Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-11 14:42 -0600
                Re: C idioms Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-09 16:18 -0600
                Re: C idioms gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 22:28 +0000
                Re: C idioms scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:58 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:48 -0700
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 16:42 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 19:40 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 12:38 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 23:41 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 19:38 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 15:04 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 16:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 16:58 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 12:17 -0400
                Grammar police! (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-07 20:37 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-07 09:31 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 18:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-07 14:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 22:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 02:56 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-08 10:48 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 12:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-08 16:00 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 17:44 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:39 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 20:08 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 11:22 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-09 09:25 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 20:43 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 20:15 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:26 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-08 21:09 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 15:18 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 07:55 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 11:24 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-08 07:19 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 16:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-10 10:59 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 19:53 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-07 18:00 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 17:10 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 01:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 02:51 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 11:29 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-10-08 04:41 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 08:36 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 17:34 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 21:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 22:00 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 00:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 01:11 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 02:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-10-09 00:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 11:28 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 13:00 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:28 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-07 20:00 -0600
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 13:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 23:35 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-06 16:18 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-06 14:48 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 12:53 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-07 16:38 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-07 15:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 16:53 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 17:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 17:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 01:30 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-07 19:12 -0600
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 18:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 19:41 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 13:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 02:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-07 12:41 +0200
                100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 00:22 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 01:55 +0100
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:58 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 11:51 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 13:09 +0100
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 05:26 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 05:40 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 12:46 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-10-06 12:46 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 12:49 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 06:27 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-07 12:47 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 09:03 -0400
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-07 16:47 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 10:17 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 09:20 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 10:58 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 12:09 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-05 03:11 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 07:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 14:25 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 08:39 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:30 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 11:41 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:56 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:00 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 12:34 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:48 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 13:55 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-05 11:20 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 14:45 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 21:39 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 08:51 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 14:18 -0800
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 15:46 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:16 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:18 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:32 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:34 -0400
                Of course it is crazy! (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 15:17 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 18:30 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 14:48 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 15:06 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 13:55 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:14 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 16:18 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:21 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 17:27 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:28 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 14:46 +0000
                When pigs fly... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 16:10 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:35 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:46 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 15:15 +0000
                6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 13:20 +0000
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 09:28 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:53 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 11:56 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 18:17 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 09:21 -0700
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 18:50 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:52 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 13:05 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:42 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 15:59 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 03:45 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-04 11:22 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 20:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 13:28 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 17:59 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 09:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 06:03 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 14:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 09:51 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 15:39 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:05 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:09 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 16:22 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:29 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 20:52 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:57 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 16:06 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 00:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2018-10-02 19:21 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:21 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:43 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-02 21:01 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 14:29 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 22:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 05:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:01 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:06 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:45 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 17:09 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:11 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:22 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:17 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-02 15:04 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Niles Rogoff <eternal-september@niles.xyz> - 2018-10-03 18:28 +0000
  Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:50 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-14 17:07 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 02:22 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 02:34 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 03:09 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 03:24 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 04:51 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 05:06 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-15 04:21 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-08-15 14:43 +0100
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 07:08 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-08-15 16:52 +0100
        Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-08-15 15:51 +0000
  Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-01 14:59 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 03:06 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 11:43 +0100
      Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 07:27 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 15:43 +0100
          Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 11:01 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 10:54 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 12:39 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:10 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:24 -0700

csiph-web