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Groups > comp.lang.c > #136239

Re: >< swap operator

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: >< swap operator
Date 2018-10-05 03:11 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87a7ntnnvp.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <d6eae0d7-cc2d-43d0-aa94-c9629f357b92@googlegroups.com> <877eiyq8y9.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <4c752ee6-5c30-4e8c-8d50-32a42554bb50@googlegroups.com> <878t3dpsl6.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <3f3b2fe4-5729-432c-889e-2f016b52dc45@googlegroups.com>

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"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 12:47:11 PM UTC-4, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> writes:
>> > Both sides are being updated.  The normal nomenclature does not
>> > lend well to this type of dual target.
>> 
>> The C terminology works just fine.  If C had >< as I am describing it,
>> the standard would say that both operands must be modifiable lvalues and
>> that the result is, itself, an lvalue denoting either the first operand.
>
> I still disagree.

What do you disagree with?  That a >< b should be an lvalue?  Why?  You
have given no reason at all.

You could simply say "because it's simpler".  For example, C and C++
disagree on whether an assignment is or is not a lvalue.  C takes the
simpler option.  Had you said just that when you first replied, I'd have
left you too it.  I was simply speculating on what could be done if the
other choice were made.  I have no horse in this race.

> I think the same can be said with something like
> ++x.  It is a unary value that's computed, then stored.

You could look up how the standard describes that form.  It forbids
++(2 + 3) because (2 + 3) is not an lvalue.

>> > Oh I really do.
>> 
>> Then what was that long detailed post showing that a >< b >< c did not
>> do as I said?
>
> When I posted that I thought you were under the mistaken impression
> that it was an lvalue.

That was and still is my position -- that a >< b should be an lvalue so
that a >< b >< c is a rotate.  Can you see how that would work even if
you disagree with whatever it is you disagree with?

> I misunderstood your post.  My reply was to
> correct what I thought was your misunderstanding.

I don't see how.  I have never espoused any other position than that a
swap expression should be an lvalue.

>> You'd understood me but decided to post about a slightly
>> different swap -- one that was not an lvalue expression -- why?  Just to
>> be argumentative?
>
> As stated above, because I thought you misunderstood what Bart
> and I had discussed previously.
>
> It was my mistake.  I apologize.
>
>> > One returns the right hand value, the other the left.  Much value.
>> 
>> a ><= b returns the same value as b ><= a.  Can you give an example of
>> where it would be better to use one rather than the other?
>
> When either b or a are the return result of a function, or
> the result of something computed.

How so?  I'd like an example.  I can't see why one or other of a or b
being something computed makes it worth while having two swap
operators.  We don't have two subtraction operators.  If I want "the
other one" I just write b - a rather than a - b.  Why can't I do that
with a swap if I want the "other" return?

By the way, in C, a function call is not an lvalue so you can't write

  f() = 42;

I'd expect the same to apply to a swap since it is, in effect, two
assignments.  I would expect both 2 >< 3 and f() >< g() to be constraint
violations.

> This opens up a whole new can of worms because it allows the
> general concept of something like:
>
>     (a + b + c) >< d;
>
> It's the same as "a + b + c = d" in normal math class.

Why would you permit that?  (a + b + c) is not an lvalue so you can't
assign to it.

> We're dealing with a new thing here, Ben.  It doesn't already
> exist in C.

But it's /trivially/ new.  There is no reason to make it complicated.
You can't assign to 2 so why do you even consider swapping with 2?  Why
would you want to give that a meaning?

> It would open the door to allowing things like
> this: 
>
>     (a + b + c) = d;

Why on earth would you allow that?  What do think 2 = d; could possibly
mean?

Operators like =, +=, ++, -- and now >< all require lvalues.  In the
case of >< it needs two where the others need only one.  That's the
starting point and I can't see why you would want to start from any
other position.

The question of whether >< should itself be an lvalue comes later.  I
think it should.  You, for some as yet unexplained reason, don't.

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

>< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-08-13 12:53 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 16:05 -0400
  Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 13:46 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:19 +0300
    Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-08-14 06:16 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator bart4858@gmail.com - 2018-08-14 07:50 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 16:59 +0200
          Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-08-14 10:46 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 20:03 +0200
              Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-08-14 11:37 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-14 21:16 +0200
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:32 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator bart4858@gmail.com - 2018-08-14 16:24 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-08-15 11:32 +0200
        Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-01 07:46 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 05:20 -0700
            Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 13:58 +0100
              Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 14:08 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:16 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-02 15:35 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:43 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 10:51 -0700
              Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:08 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 15:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 10:52 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 17:57 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:27 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 11:52 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 20:48 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 15:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 13:26 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:36 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 13:47 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:14 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:37 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 22:02 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 17:16 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:25 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 10:52 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 14:29 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 05:52 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-03 21:31 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 16:47 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 03:43 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 22:47 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 04:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 20:44 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 11:53 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 05:15 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 13:48 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 10:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 17:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 11:01 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-04 22:15 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 16:19 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 21:42 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 15:01 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 23:59 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 09:54 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 18:03 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 21:08 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-05 20:31 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2018-10-05 15:59 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 21:18 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 03:51 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 12:19 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 19:49 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 12:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 14:19 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 06:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 16:30 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 13:17 +0200
                C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 13:07 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 14:27 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-10 00:05 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 02:03 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-11 01:05 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 02:09 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 12:39 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-11 16:24 +0100
                Re: C idioms scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 15:55 +0000
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 09:42 -0700
                Re: C idioms Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 19:23 +0200
                Re: C idioms jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-11 11:11 -0700
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 12:05 -0700
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 17:53 +0100
                Re: C idioms Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 10:38 -0700
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-12 00:14 +0100
                Re: C idioms Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 19:26 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 16:38 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 15:23 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 20:31 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 20:18 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:11 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-09 20:50 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:58 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 22:34 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:10 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-09 14:45 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:07 +0200
                Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 07:56 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 10:32 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-10 13:44 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:52 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-10 17:47 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:18 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 15:22 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 23:58 +0200
                Re: Hmmm... Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-10 07:51 -0600
                Re: Hmmm... gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:53 +0000
                Re: Hmmm... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:21 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:57 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-10 12:29 -0400
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:07 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-09 14:50 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 08:13 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:56 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 15:55 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 15:17 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 14:49 +0000
                Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:59 +0000
                Re: Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 16:09 +0100
                Re: Fall-through in switch statements... (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-10-10 17:29 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 16:01 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:29 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-10 17:55 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 17:11 +0100
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-10 23:15 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:16 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 23:23 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:31 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 15:32 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:24 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 10:52 +0200
                Re: C idioms Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-10 09:59 -0600
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 17:26 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 14:48 +0000
                Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 15:20 +0000
                You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-10 15:28 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:23 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 13:22 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 15:58 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 14:17 +0000
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 16:42 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 16:53 +0200
                Re: You know that and I know that, but ... (Was: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator))) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 20:11 +0200
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 00:20 +0200
                Re: Return values of fork() (Was: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator)) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-10 16:15 -0700
                Re: Return values of fork() Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-11 14:42 -0600
                Re: C idioms Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-09 16:18 -0600
                Re: C idioms gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 22:28 +0000
                Re: C idioms scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 12:58 +0000
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:48 -0700
                Re: C idioms Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 16:42 +0100
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 19:40 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 12:38 -0700
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 23:41 +0200
                Re: C idioms (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-09 19:38 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 15:04 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-07 16:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 16:58 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 12:17 -0400
                Grammar police! (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-07 20:37 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-07 09:31 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 18:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-07 14:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-07 22:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 02:56 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-08 10:48 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 12:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-08 16:00 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 17:44 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:39 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 20:08 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 11:22 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-09 09:25 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 20:43 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 20:15 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 22:26 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-10-08 21:09 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 15:18 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 07:55 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-09 11:24 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-08 07:19 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 16:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-10 10:59 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 19:53 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-07 18:00 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 17:10 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 01:25 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 02:51 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 11:29 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-10-08 04:41 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu - 2018-10-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 08:36 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 17:34 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-08 21:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 22:00 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 00:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 01:11 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-09 02:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-10-09 00:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 11:28 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-09 13:00 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:28 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-08 10:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-07 20:00 -0600
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 13:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 23:35 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:49 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-06 16:18 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-06 14:48 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 12:53 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-07 16:38 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-07 15:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 16:53 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 17:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-07 17:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-08 01:30 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-10-07 19:12 -0600
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 18:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 19:41 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-06 13:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 02:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-07 12:41 +0200
                100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 00:22 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 01:55 +0100
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:58 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 11:51 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 13:09 +0100
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 05:26 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 05:40 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 12:46 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-10-06 12:46 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-06 12:49 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 06:27 -0700
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-07 12:47 +0000
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 09:03 -0400
                Re: 100% of the user base... (Was: >< swap operator) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-07 16:47 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 10:17 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 09:20 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 10:58 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 12:09 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-05 03:11 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 07:56 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 14:25 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 08:39 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:47 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:30 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 11:41 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:56 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:00 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 12:34 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:48 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 13:55 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-05 11:20 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 14:45 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-10-05 21:39 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 08:51 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 14:18 -0800
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 15:46 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:05 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:16 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:18 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:32 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:34 -0400
                Of course it is crazy! (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 15:17 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 18:30 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 14:48 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 15:06 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 13:55 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:14 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 16:18 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:21 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 17:27 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-05 15:26 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:28 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 14:46 +0000
                When pigs fly... (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 16:10 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:35 +0300
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:46 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 15:15 +0000
                6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-10-05 13:20 +0000
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 09:28 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-05 17:53 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 11:56 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 18:17 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 09:21 -0700
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 18:50 +0200
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:52 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 13:05 -0400
                Re: 6K years??? (Was: >< swap operator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 03:42 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-05 15:59 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-06 03:45 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-04 11:22 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 20:35 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-04 13:28 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-04 17:59 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 09:56 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 06:03 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 14:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 09:51 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 15:39 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:05 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:09 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 16:22 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:29 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 20:52 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:57 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 16:06 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-03 00:09 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2018-10-02 19:21 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-03 11:21 +0200
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:43 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-02 21:01 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 14:29 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 22:37 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 05:07 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:01 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:06 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 21:45 +0100
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 17:09 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:11 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 16:22 -0400
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:17 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:24 -0700
                Re: >< swap operator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-02 15:04 +0000
                Re: >< swap operator Niles Rogoff <eternal-september@niles.xyz> - 2018-10-03 18:28 +0000
  Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-08-14 11:50 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-14 17:07 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 02:22 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 02:34 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 03:09 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 03:24 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 04:51 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 05:06 -0700
      Re: >< swap operator Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-15 04:21 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-08-15 14:43 +0100
          Re: >< swap operator fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 07:08 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-08-15 16:52 +0100
        Re: >< swap operator Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-08-15 15:51 +0000
  Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-01 14:59 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 03:06 -0700
    Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 11:43 +0100
      Re: >< swap operator John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 07:27 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-02 15:43 +0100
          Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 11:01 -0700
        Re: >< swap operator Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-02 10:54 -0700
          Re: >< swap operator Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 12:39 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:10 -0700
  Re: >< swap operator skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:24 -0700

csiph-web