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Groups > sci.physics > #696901

Re: What is a particle?

From Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: What is a particle?
Date 2018-08-03 18:14 +0000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <pk2618$1kmd$2@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (20 earlier) <pjv4nh$k6b$1@gioia.aioe.org> <pjv6a1$n4e$1@pcls7.std.com> <pjvob1$1nh5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <pk1mg2$ob3$2@gioia.aioe.org> <pk24au$1i1e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/3/2018 9:48 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 8/2/2018 11:00 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>>>> benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you have read as many texts as you
>>>>>>> pretend you'd have read it too.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Why don't you start with something simple and down at your amateur
>>>>>>> level, OK? Like say Google or wikipedia?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "A field line is a locus that is defined by a vector field and a
>>>>>>> starting location within the field. Field lines are useful for
>>>>>>> visualizing vector fields, which are otherwise hard to depict. Unlike
>>>>>>> longitude and latitude lines on a globe, or topographic lines on a
>>>>>>> topographic map, they are not physically present at any locations; they
>>>>>>> are merely conceptual tools."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's right! How does that make them nonsense??
>>>>>> Here are your statements:
>>>>>> They do not make sense and have never made sense.
>>>>>> Mathematically "field lines" are utter nonsense.
>>>>>> There is no consistent way you can define these fantasy "lines" from a
>>>>>> field.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> How does it follow from them not being physically there that they are utter
>>>>>> nonsense??
>>>>>> Is a conceptual tool that is widely used utter nonsense?
>>>> 
>>>>> I said "mathematical nonsense" you science retard. If you are going to
>>>>> make up what I say, then just post for both of us. They make clear the
>>>>> "lines" cannot be counted and have no true numerical meaning. That they
>>>>> make pretty pictures has nothing to do with math. That is your kind of
>>>>> understanding, isn't it? To you pretty pictures are science!
>>>> 
>>>> Calling them "nonsense" because they don't physically exist is like
>>>> calling iso elevation curves on a topo map "nonsense" because if you go
>>>> out in the field, no hills have iso elevation curves or slope gradients on
>>>> them! It is an instructive tool, and is pretty much what John S. has been
>>>> asking for since he is (too!) visually oriented.
>>>> 
>>> Odd is just ignorant, but you sort of just don't get it. It's not about
>>> stripes on a hill! Didn't you read the wiki piece? There are no
>>> longitude stripes on the ground yet they exist and are mathematically
>>> real.
>> 
>> Ben, you’re so busy dancing you can’t talk straight.
>> You cite a Wikipedia article that does NOT say that field lines are
>> mathematical nonsense, but does say they are not physically present, from
>> which you conclude they must be mathematical nonsense. Then you say that
>> longitudinal lines, which are ALSO not physically present on the ground,
>> but now they are mathematically real.
>> 
>> You say field lines are mathematical nonsense because you can’t count them,
>> but you say that equipotentials are real, but when I ask you to count them
>> you dodge.
>> 
>> And you say *I* am the one that’s been cornered when you’ve painted
>> yourself into a corner.
>> 
>> Hmmmm.
>> 
>>> The problem here is mathematically they can't really be defined
>>> like elevation curves can. I'll ask you like I keep asking Odd. Just how
>>> many field lines are there around an electron sitting in space?  Give me
>>> that number!
> 
> Elevation curves and equipotentials are defined by the height and 
> potential values in space which actually have values at every point.

That’s right. So does a field. 
So how many equipotential surfaces are there within a 1m radius of a ping
pong ball with 2.1nC on it?

> 
> A field line does not have such determinism. Just where does each field 
> line start. Give me the point? Oh you say it's ANY point! And then what 
> does it represent mathematically about that point? Well it's about 
> direction of the field gradient at certain arbitrary points. But the 
> field is a continuum and there are no such lines. So it's nothing but an 
> arbitrary construct which really has no physical meaning at all and thus 
> mathematically is not really defined either. I can give the potential 

I didn’t ask you about the potential. I asked you about the equipotential
surface. 

I can also tell you the field at any point just like you can tell me the
potential at any point. But you are asking about field lines, not the
field, and I am asking about equipotential surfaces, not the potential. 

The field lines are drawn with a scale that determines their spacing, just
like equipotentials are drawn with a scale that determines their spacing. 

You really cannot understand the relations here?

How many equipotential surfaces are there within a meter radius of a ping
pong ball with 2.1nC on it?

How many lines of longitude are there in the earth? How many lines of
latitude?

How many topographical iso-elevation curves are there on Oahu?

> value for any point in space, but If I pick a point and ask about the 
> "field line" through there there really isn't one unless I arbitrarily 
> construct one. And what does that show about the field? Only that you 
> made something up and now believe it to be true (you know like he way 
> you operate in the rest of your life...no wonder you believe in field 
> lines!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-25 16:02 -0700
  Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-25 23:34 +0000
  Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 19:28 -0700
  Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-25 21:47 -0500
    Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 22:08 -0700
    Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 09:52 -0400
      Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-26 09:28 -0500
        Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-26 12:47 -0700
          Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 13:30 -0700
            Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-26 21:27 +0000
            Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-27 01:03 +0000
              Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 18:25 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-26 18:41 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-27 02:02 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-26 19:33 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-27 01:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-27 02:56 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-26 20:10 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-28 16:42 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-28 14:53 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-28 23:15 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 05:29 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 12:36 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 05:44 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 06:03 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 06:14 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 06:48 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 08:32 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-29 19:11 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-29 18:59 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Wayne Dial <ulau@dvbpdn.dv> - 2018-07-29 19:37 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 06:41 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 07:51 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 15:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 09:45 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-31 10:14 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 11:56 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-30 10:42 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-30 16:59 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-29 18:50 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Wayne Dial <ulau@dvbpdn.dv> - 2018-07-29 19:42 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-29 12:57 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-30 17:04 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 10:18 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 17:25 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-30 16:15 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 00:26 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 05:17 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 12:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 13:37 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-31 07:13 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 00:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-01 01:04 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 04:48 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 12:04 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 05:37 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 13:01 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 06:13 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 14:58 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 08:33 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 18:37 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-01 13:44 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 15:12 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-08-01 15:51 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 16:11 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-01 15:13 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-01 21:06 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-01 17:18 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 10:55 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-03 19:11 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-04 18:22 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 19:54 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 10:55 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 15:02 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 21:05 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 14:59 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 21:05 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 20:05 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 01:38 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-01 18:55 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 03:17 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 01:36 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 01:04 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 09:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 10:37 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 07:42 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 08:34 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 09:52 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-02 17:18 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 10:50 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-02 20:42 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 16:12 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 00:16 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:48 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 07:27 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 15:22 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 08:30 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 17:30 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 14:06 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:56 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 18:14 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 15:16 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 20:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-04 02:51 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-04 14:22 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-04 12:29 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-04 13:55 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 10:38 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-02 22:51 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 22:25 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-04 20:11 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-05 01:24 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-02 23:32 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-02 23:36 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 06:25 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 06:23 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:48 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:46 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 18:14 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 15:09 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:48 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 00:16 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 01:34 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 09:25 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 10:33 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-02 15:00 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 16:08 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-02 20:52 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 00:16 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 20:57 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:09 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:33 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 18:13 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 15:07 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 20:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:48 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:45 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 18:14 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 15:07 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 20:41 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-03 20:17 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 00:16 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-02 17:34 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 21:04 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 18:38 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 22:54 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 20:26 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-03 12:25 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-02 21:03 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 13:48 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-03 14:00 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-01 00:54 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Wayne Dial <ulau@dvbpdn.dv> - 2018-07-30 19:15 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-08-01 00:59 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-29 17:55 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-29 13:20 -0500
                Re: What is a particle? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-07-29 18:47 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-28 18:15 -0400
                Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-28 15:25 -0700
          Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-26 15:38 -0500
            Re: What is a particle? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-26 14:13 -0700
              Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-28 11:39 -0500
  Re: What is a particle? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-26 00:08 -0700
    Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 05:50 -0700
      Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 13:41 +0000
        Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 06:54 -0700
          Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 14:14 +0000
            Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-28 11:41 -0500
              Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-28 10:48 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-28 18:42 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-07-28 12:44 -0700
                Re: What is a particle? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-28 19:54 +0000
                Re: What is a particle? Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-28 15:29 -0500

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