Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch.

From	Sergio <invalid@invalid.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics, sci.astro, rec.arts.sf.science
Subject	Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch.
Date	2018-06-12 09:57 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<pfon17$upc$2@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <MPG.3585fc5ae6671292989ac1@news.eternal-september.org> <pfkpim$sa0$1@dont-email.me> <MPG.35882bbe599c0062989aca@news.eternal-september.org> <pfmubd$62p$1@dont-email.me> <MPG.35896e274b8718a3989acd@news.eternal-september.org>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 6/12/2018 5:44 AM, Jeff Findley wrote:
> In article <pfmubd$62p$1@dont-email.me>, droleary@
> 2017usenet1.subsume.com says...
>>
>> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Balloon launch isn't worth the trades which have to be made, IMHO.
>>
>> Certainly not today, no, or people would be doing it.  But as I keep 
>> saying, new technologies keep popping up all the time that might make 
>> it viable in the future, at least for a few use cases.
> 
> I have an engineering degree.  When developing new things, engineers 
> work with what they have today because they've got schedules and 
> deadlines to meet.  You're talking about technologies not yet invented.  
> That's research, not development.  The two are not the same.
> 
>>> By your definition, a passenger carrying aircraft is "waste" because it 
>>> flies from one destination to another while carrying passengers.
>>
>> Yes; that is true by any definition.  Just because it?s (arguably) the 
>> least wasteful mode of transportation we currently have says nothing 
>> about how we might travel in the future.
> 
> Again, to an engineer the future is what you can do with existing tech.  
> SpaceX has reduced launch costs beyond what any of the competition can 
> deliver.  They arguably didn't use any new technology at all.  DC-X 
> proved VTVL as a viable take of and landing mode.  SpaceX applied that 
> to Falcon 9's first stage.  
>  
>>> They don't give a rat's ass about the "waste" of the 
>>> actual aircraft having to fly there and back.
>>
>> That same logic could have been used regarding ship or train travel 
>> prior to the airplane?s dominance.  The point being that they *will* 
>> care as soon as a new technology comes along that allows more 
>> efficient travel.  What that might be in reality is unknown, but 
>> clearly something like teleportation or Futurama-style tubes are 
>> sci-fi ways of moving just the bits that need to be moved from one 
>> location to another.
> 
> Actually moving freight by rail is the cheapest way to move a ton of 
> goods from point a to point b, assuming you can connect the two by rail.  
> Aircraft have the advantage of speed, so your Amazon order gets there 
> overnight instead of in a week or two, but you're paying for Amazon 
> Prime, which isn't exactly cheap now is it?
> 
> Two different sets of requirements lead to two completely different 
> vehicles.  That's how engineering optimization works.
> 
>>> When your hardware costs more than two 
>>> orders of magnitude more than your propellant does, it makes a hell of a 
>>> lot of sense to "expend" a bit of propellant to get your expensive 
>>> hardware back intact.
>>
>> Yes.  And I?m just wondering why you can?t just take the next step and 
>> admit that eliminating that expensive hardware *completely* would 
>> represent a cost saving of two orders of magnitude!  You wrote it, but 
>> it?s like you weren?t really thinking about what your words actually 
>> meant.
> 
> As an engineer I quite simply can't do that.  There is no *proven* 
> existing tech that is cheaper than liquid fueled rocket engines for 
> reaching orbit.  
> 
> What you are trying to get me to admit is that eventually, some day, 
> there may be something better.  Sure, there might.  Also, monkeys might 
> fly out of my butt.  I'm not waiting for sci-fi to become reality.  I'm 
> working with what I've got today.  Again, that's what engineers do. 
> 
> Jeff
> 

laws of physics do not change, and they constrain possable solutions,
engineers make stuff real, and that stuff complies with physical laws.

Thread

Towards routine, reusable space launch. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-07 16:24 -0400
  Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-07 16:47 -0400
  Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 23:24 -0700
  Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-08 13:10 +0000
    Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-08 08:31 -0500
    Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 20:47 -0700
      Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-09 17:19 +0000
        Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-09 16:02 -0400
          Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-11 03:16 +0000
            Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-10 23:19 -0500
            Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-11 05:25 +0000
              Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-11 22:18 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 20:52 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-12 06:34 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-12 14:36 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 14:29 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-12 19:00 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-13 02:15 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 01:27 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-13 06:46 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-13 16:28 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 14:38 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-14 05:22 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-14 15:44 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-15 07:52 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-15 21:33 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-16 10:38 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-16 17:51 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 02:16 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-17 15:49 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-17 16:52 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-18 02:44 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 00:05 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-18 14:27 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 19:39 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 18:26 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-13 12:57 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 14:35 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-13 17:55 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 21:44 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-14 22:02 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-13 19:39 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 21:53 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-14 19:46 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-15 07:56 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-15 19:21 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-15 19:18 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-15 21:05 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-16 10:06 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-16 13:21 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-16 13:57 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-16 14:19 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. mvp@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt) - 2018-06-19 18:38 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-06-19 21:27 -0600
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-15 22:13 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 20:34 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-16 09:54 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-18 13:45 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-18 21:06 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 20:00 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-19 19:45 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-19 22:12 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-20 20:21 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 17:13 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-20 20:34 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-21 06:26 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-21 03:48 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-21 13:35 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-21 20:57 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-21 23:22 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-22 07:18 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-22 17:45 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-22 19:58 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-23 03:39 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-23 08:38 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-23 17:18 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-23 09:58 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-24 00:53 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-23 08:34 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-18 22:17 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 00:45 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-19 15:58 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 14:38 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-20 15:42 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-20 16:58 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-25 20:44 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 17:07 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-21 23:24 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-21 21:38 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-06-19 21:35 -0600
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-19 17:01 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-21 22:39 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-06-14 15:39 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2018-06-14 15:53 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-14 04:47 -0400
            Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 04:00 -0700
              Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-11 22:35 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 20:58 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-12 15:00 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 14:36 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-06-12 20:08 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 22:12 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. willner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) - 2018-06-15 18:59 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 12:13 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. willner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) - 2018-06-18 20:36 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 19:57 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. willner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) - 2018-06-25 21:17 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-25 15:52 -0700
            Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-11 07:49 -0400
              Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-11 16:36 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-11 14:02 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:23 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-11 21:20 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-06-11 19:38 -0600
              Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-11 22:50 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 21:03 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-12 06:44 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-12 09:57 -0500
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-12 17:52 -0400
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2018-06-12 15:20 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 14:47 -0700
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-12 19:43 +0000
                Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 14:52 -0700
        Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 16:05 -0700
          Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-13 06:41 -0400
            Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 14:36 -0700
    Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-06-09 09:34 -0600
      Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-09 15:56 -0400
  Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-08 18:06 -0400
  Re: Towards routine, reusable space launch. numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 15:38 -0700

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