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Groups > sci.military.naval > #260278
| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.military.naval, sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft |
| Date | 2018-05-01 19:43 -0700 |
| Organization | n/a |
| Message-ID | <pcb8k1$s3l$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (8 earlier) <0ai2ed5vv7p7poiu5sd8l7fpbct434oiep@4ax.com> <pbuc8g$b2n$1@dont-email.me> <tpr5edhemh5qpkk628froinmqhrqv5l5i4@4ax.com> <pcak26$chp$1@dont-email.me> <rq2ieddkpr6sbm62v684vn12h165r7rp0h@4ax.com> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 5/1/2018 5:57 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> wrote > on Tue, 1 May 2018 13:52:19 -0700: > >> On 4/27/2018 2:58 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>> "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> wrote >>> on Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:25:37 -0700: >>> >>>> On 4/25/2018 9:29 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>>>> "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> wrote >>>>> on Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:29:45 -0700: >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/25/2018 11:05 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>>>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote on Wed, 25 Apr 2018 10:21:50 -0500: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/24/2018 4:42 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 4/24/2018 1:50 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/23/2018 11:17 PM, Juergen Nieveler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 24.04.2018 07:17, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Will taking off in an F16 soon be equal to taking off in an F22 wrt >>>>>>>>>>>> the fact that they can both be seen!? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I doubt it will happen "soon"... but it's a stern reminder that >>>>>>>>>>> stealth technology is just a bet against the ingeniousness of physics >>>>>>>>>>> grad students in the next 5 decades... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That has to be interesting to any pilot. They might find themselves up >>>>>>>>>> against a shi% load of active SAM sites. Ahh, well, the SAMS that are >>>>>>>>>> left after the initial barrages of HARM's and JSOW's are fired off by >>>>>>>>>> coalition aircraft. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_Joint_Standoff_Weapon >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The HARMS should target the SAMS, and the JSOW's should make the SAMS >>>>>>>>>> fire off at projected phantom targets. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Love it: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_Joint_Standoff_Weapon#/media/File:AGM-154_03.jpg >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ;^) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll just note that HARMs can't target SAMs. They can only target the >>>>>>> radars. >>>>>> >>>>>> Argh! Sorry about that. You are correct. Well, if a SAM's radars are >>>>>> severely damaged and/or outright destroyed, well, it is kind of rendered >>>>>> into a highly degraded and somewhat worthless state, in a sense? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yep, but if you leave the missiles intact they can just drive in >>>>> another radar. >>>> >>>> DOH! Correct again. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Hence the use of JSOW on the missile emplacements. >>>> >>>> Indeed. Can JSOW launch a couple of MALD's? >>>> >>> >>> No. MALD are generally carried by something like B-52. MALD flies >>> long enough and far enough that it can be launched from well outside a >>> MEZ. >>> >>>> >>>>>> Iirc, JSOW can project phantom radar signatures of coalition aircraft >>>>>> and cause the SAM to fire at them. Then, finally, the JSOW can choose >>>>>> where to perform its "final mission", to destroy a target. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nope. I think you're thinking of MALD, which looks rather like JSOW >>>>> but is much smaller and has a motor. >>>> >>>> You are absolutely correct on this one. For some reason I thought that >>>> JSOW can project as well. Well, think of multiple MALD being released >>> >from a cruise-type Phoenix like missile launched from a stand off aircraft. >>>> >>>> A single Phoenix can potentially launch multiple MALD after they "get >>>> into a certain range". Heck, perhaps even a JSOW can launch some MALD's >>>> in and of itself. Fractal layers of defense, in a sense? >>>> >>> >>> No. MALD is too big to be used as a submunition. >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> JSOW saturation can deplete a SAM of missiles and might force it to be >>>>>>>>>> reloaded. HARM saturation should destroy its radar systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ahh. I knew I wrote about HARM's destroying radars. Sorry for any >>>>>> confusion, and thanks for your correction on my previous statement. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The idea behind HARM is that it's so fast you don't need to do >>>>> saturation attacks, hence the 'H' in the name. >>>> >>>> Well, imvvho, the more the merrier, high-speed or not. Imvvho, we should >>>> mass produce these types of countermeasures, and never stop improving >>>> their capabilities. >>>> >>> >>> There are actually two (well, three) versions of MALD. There's the >>> baseline MALD, there's MALD-J, which includes patterned jamming, and >>> there's a version with a little tiny warhead. >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> However, perhaps "in the future", the damn enemy has an experimental >>>>>>>>>> weapon that is "theoretically" immune to HARM and JSOW, and can easily >>>>>>>>>> see and target F-22's. It can also tell the difference between F-16, >>>>>>>>>> F-15, F-22 and F-35 in real time and act accordingly... Oh SHI%! The >>>>>>>>>> coalition must be trying to prevent the enemy from engaging within >>>>>>>>>> this line of experimentation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> At least the F-22 is also a superb plane on top of being stealthy, so >>>>>>>>>>> it could still fight on even terms with other fighters with the >>>>>>>>>>> stealth advantage removed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Agreed. At least it has that handy Vulcan Cannon for a knife fight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> yep => short range, inaccurate >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> USAF F-35 also carries a built-in cannon. It just doesn't carry very >>>>>>> many rounds for it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Imvvho, the pilots of an F-22 should not totally rely on hyper >>>>>>>>>> advanced missile attack scenarios. I know they can fire on targets >>>>>>>>>> from a long range via Phoenix, or medium range using AMRAAM. However, >>>>>>>>>> even the newest versions of those missiles can fail to hit their >>>>>>>>>> targets... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> aircraft have very good countermeasures, IR, microwave, decoys, flares >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phoenix is dead. The last airplane that could fire it was the F-14 >>>>>>> Tomcat. USAF never owned any even when it was around, so it certainly >>>>>>> was never a provision for F-22. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Does the F-22 carry long range missiles, or just medium range? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> AIM-120 is as good as it gets for pretty much everybody these days. >>>> >>>> Nice, kind of agreed. I would still like to be able to fire off multiple >>>> very long range cruise missiles, kind of like Phoenix used as a >>>> supplement of any all out assault. Perhaps Phoenix can be used to deploy >>>> an little "army" of micro drones? F-14 was kind of assigned to a stand >>>> off fleet defense role anyway, right? >>>> >>> >>> Not a workable alternative. Phoenix got its range by doing a zoom >>> climb up into the stratosphere and then diving down on the target. >>> This worked well with bombers, but was less effective with a smaller, >>> more maneuverable target like a fighter. >>> >>>> >>>> Also, what about applying that to the radar system of an enemy SAM? Can >>>> it use a "swarm of drones" as an aspect of its overall radar system? So, >>>> HARM might be not be quite as useful as it once was? >>>> >>> >>> HARM is probably still ahead of ways to try to fool it. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Phoenix required an AWG-9 radar. The only aircraft to ever have that >>>>> were the USN version of the F-111 (F-111B) which was never produced >>>>> and the F-14 Tomcat. That's not as bad as it might seem, though, >>>>> since the AIM-120D can reach out almost 100 miles and the cruise >>>>> missile carrying bomber air defense role for the Navy is much less >>>>> required than it used to be. >>>>> >>>> >>>> For some reason, I would still launch some F-14's and put them on >>>> standoff defensive orbits loaded with state-of-the-art AIM-54 and AIM-120's >>>> >>> >>> F-14 was killed as too expensive to fly. They aren't even in the >>> Boneyard anymore. They were ground up to prevent parts from being >>> diverted to Iran. >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The F-35 is a different topic... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Afaict, F-22's most likely can eat up F-35's for breakfast, lunch and >>>>>>>>>> possibly dinner? Can the F-35 carry the newest Sidewinders? Does it >>>>>>>>>> require an external pylon? If so, there goes stealth. Damn. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sidewinders need external pylon as they have to lock onto target before >>>>>>>> launch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not on an F-22 they don't. On an F-22 they launch from internal bays. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You are right. Thanks again Fred. :^) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was in the missile business until a few years ago and do still keep >>>>> some track of what's going on, so I'm not horribly out of date yet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for taking the time to set me on the right path. Corrections = >>>> learning! Very nice conversing with you Fred. :^) >>>> >>> >>> You're quite welcome. >>> >> >> Found a fairly decent advertisement from Raytheon: >> >> https://youtu.be/0acJ3xyhaJo >> > > It's not bad, but there's something they don't point out. Practically > all the JSOW belong to the Navy. MALD is mostly Air Force, although I > think they were integrating it on F/A-18 for the Navy. Newer HARM is > all Air Force, with the Navy opting to switch to a different (more > expensive) weapon named AARGM. So seeing all three Raytheon weapons > used the way the ad's notional scenario describes is a little > unlikely. > >> >> I would love to see a cruise missile deploy a swarm of little MALD's, >> then finally fly off to destroy its "main" target... >> > > And just where would this notional cruise missile keep all these > little MALDs (which would have to be an entirely new weapon and not > MALD at all) and just how much space could possibly be left for a > warhead? > > Need to think more, but perhaps each individual drone can be contained in a little cylinder and use some clever origami after it is ejected. The missile would carry multiple cylinders. Perhaps, after it releases a swarm, it can go on orbit mode and use its radar, instead of warhead, to help guide its swarm. Fractal design would allow the missile to deploy a couple of weapons that can go to other targets and deploy their own swarms. A single missile can potentially create and try to help guide a swarm of swarms. Perhaps a squadron of drones can descend upon a ground based target and explode in special formations that act as if a hard core cluster bomb went off?
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Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft George <george.core@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-23 13:38 +0000
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Dhu on Gate <campbell@neotext.ca> - 2018-04-23 15:45 +0000
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-23 22:17 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-24 08:17 +0200
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 13:50 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 14:42 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-25 10:21 -0500
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 11:05 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-25 14:06 -0500
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 13:34 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft jonathan <WriteInstead@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 19:02 -0400
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 22:55 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2018-04-27 18:56 +0100
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2018-04-27 18:37 +0100
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-25 15:29 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 21:29 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-26 00:42 -0500
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-26 22:25 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 02:58 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-05-01 13:52 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-05-01 17:26 -0500
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-01 17:57 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-05-01 19:43 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 07:33 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-27 09:17 +0200
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 03:03 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Airyx <eweinkam@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 05:22 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Peter Stickney <p_stickney@verizon.net> - 2018-04-27 16:46 -0400
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-27 14:27 +0200
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Airyx <eweinkam@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 06:47 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-27 11:27 -0500
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Peter Stickney <p_stickney@verizon.net> - 2018-04-27 16:50 -0400
Long Range US Missiles in the 21st. Century WAS Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "David E. Powell" <david_powell3006@msn.com> - 2018-04-25 21:20 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 14:52 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "dott.Piergiorgio" <chiedetemelo@ask.me> - 2018-04-29 10:16 +0200
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft abelard <abelard3@abelard.org> - 2018-04-24 11:56 +0200
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-06-23 21:50 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-03 23:05 -0700
Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft abelard <abelard3@abelard.org> - 2018-07-04 11:55 +0200
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