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Groups > comp.lang.c > #128048

Re: Dropping C

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Dropping C
Date 2018-03-19 23:33 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <p8pdre$psf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <OqDrC.29588$sQ.26100@fx38.am4> <p8oe8t$6fa$1@dont-email.me> <dnQrC.46794$Il7.3609@fx46.am4> <KOQrC.13910$qM7.7763@fx29.iad> <NfSrC.254622$K43.16500@fx31.am4>

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On 19/03/18 18:16, bartc wrote:
> On 19/03/2018 15:37, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>> On 19/03/2018 13:34, Noob wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/2018 01:24, bartc wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry but I've never found it comfortable nor productive writing C
>>>>> with its many annoyances that I've listed from time to time.
>>>>
>>>> It makes no sense to me that you spend so much time criticizing C
>>>> in a C newsgroup. What do you hope to achieve?
>>>>
>>>> It's fine for you to enjoy other languages. Why are you trying
>>>> to convince us that C sucks?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's not so hard to do, because it seems to be generally agreed that
>>> many of C's design choices /do/ suck.
>>
>>   Generally agreed by you and the kitty, perhaps, but not by the rest 
>> of the world.
> 
> Which means, what, that:
> 
> * Allowing both = and == in expressions was a good idea

Many people find that neat for particular idioms.  I'm not keen on using 
"=" in expressions myself, but it is occasionally a good way to write 
the code.  And having it allowed by the language is not a problem, 
assuming you use appropriate development tools.

> 
> * The inside-out type declaration syntax was a good idea

Type declaration is usually fine in C.  If it is getting complicated or 
unclear, just use typedef's to simplify it.

> 
> * Allowing () parameter lists was a good idea

?

> 
> * Always requiring break inside case blocks was a good idea

Ah, there I agree with you.  See - it happens sometimes!

> 
> * Having loop-break and switch-break clash was a good idea
> 
> * Allowing uint64_t, unsigned long long, long unsigned long int,
>    int unsigned long long etc etc for the same primitive word type
>    was a good idea

I would prefer the type system there to be somewhat different.  That 
does not mean I think it is "generally agreed".

> 
> * Allowing const const const const int const const (to mean a single 
> const int) was a good idea

That is absolutely fine as far as I can see.

> 
> * Allowing long int const typedef T was a good idea.

That is an obsolete feature, one that I have never seen in real code, 
and one that is easily caught by compiler warnings or IDEs.  As an 
obsoleted feature in the standards, you have grounds for saying there is 
general agreement that it is a bad idea.  I would have been happier to 
see this an many other obsoleted features banned outright in C99 or C11.

> 
> * Allowing typedef void F(int,int); was a good idea (how many know what 
> it means?)

It defines a typedef for a function type.  Usually I typedef pointers to 
function types, but people have different preferences here.  I never use 
a function pointer parameter without such a typedef - and I give 
parameter names in the typedef too.

> 
> * NOT having a scoped, named constant value of any type was a good idea

Constants in C are somewhat limited, I agree - they are better in C++.

> 
> * Having separate namespaces for struct/enum and everything else except 
> labels was a good idea
> 
> ... I can keep this up for hours.

We know.  However, while some of your points are good, the majority of 
them are just silly (I have seen your lists).  Certainly they are very 
far from being "generally agreed".

> 
> People tolerate C because at this level there are too few choices (there 
> is C++ which is even worse). But they shouldn't make out it is a perfect 
> language where nothing sucks.
> 

Nobody I have seen claims C is perfect.  Many people - most people here 
- think it is good enough to be useful for a variety of purposes.  Most 
think it is not going to change, no matter how much moaning and wailing 
goes on - and most think it is /good/ that there is little change 
because its stability and constancy is one of the language's most 
important features.  And most people are happy to find ways to handle 
the quirks of the language that they like least - such as by using 
sensible development tools or writing their code in a way that makes sense.

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Thread

Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 16:07 +0000
  Re: Dropping C "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 00:41 +0800
  Re: Dropping C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-03-17 19:54 -0400
    Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 13:19 +1300
      Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 02:42 -0700
    Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 01:28 +0000
      Re: Dropping C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-03-17 21:41 -0400
        Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 11:25 +0000
          Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 04:33 -0700
          Re: Dropping C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-03-19 00:05 +0100
            Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 00:24 +0000
              Re: Dropping C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-03-18 21:15 -0400
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 19:00 -0700
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-19 14:04 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 06:08 -0700
                Re: Dropping C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-03-19 14:29 -0700
              Re: Dropping C Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2018-03-19 14:34 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 06:39 -0700
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 15:17 +0100
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 15:03 +0000
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-19 15:36 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 17:01 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-03-19 12:14 -0600
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 19:15 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-20 08:20 +1300
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 20:47 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Lowell Gilbert <lgusenet@be-well.ilk.org> - 2018-03-19 18:00 -0400
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 22:17 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-03-20 09:34 +0800
                Re: Dropping C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-03-21 07:54 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-21 04:10 -0500
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 11:08 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 11:18 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 05:28 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-21 12:13 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 12:26 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-21 15:55 +0000
                Re: Dropping C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-03-21 20:15 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-03-21 12:45 -0700
                Re: Dropping C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-03-21 13:46 -0700
                Killfiles (Was: Dropping C) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-03-21 21:42 +0000
                Re: Killfiles (Was: Dropping C) Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 04:22 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-21 20:21 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 22:21 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-03-20 09:32 +0800
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 10:01 +1300
                Re: Dropping C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 16:01 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-03-19 13:41 -0600
                Re: Dropping C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 12:52 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 20:15 +0000
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-19 20:38 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 22:00 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 01:45 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 03:05 +0100
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 21:09 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-20 18:26 +1300
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 10:58 +0000
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-20 14:22 +0100
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-20 13:58 +0000
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-20 17:14 +0100
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 16:31 +0000
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-20 17:14 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:31 +1300
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:51 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 08:01 +1300
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-20 19:03 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 19:22 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 08:25 +1300
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 19:33 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 09:34 +1300
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-20 19:49 +0000
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-21 11:27 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 01:27 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 17:03 +0100
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-19 23:13 +0100
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 00:23 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 00:55 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 02:29 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 02:04 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 03:31 +0100
                Re: Dropping C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-03-21 20:18 +0100
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 21:32 +0100
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-21 20:52 +0000
                Re: Dropping C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-03-21 14:38 -0700
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 23:08 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-22 13:37 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 15:41 +0100
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-22 14:58 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 17:37 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-22 17:09 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 18:27 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-22 17:35 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 18:46 +0100
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-22 18:22 +0000
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 19:38 +0100
                Re: Dropping C jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2018-03-22 12:19 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-22 20:23 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 06:10 -0700
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-23 14:54 +0100
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 16:55 +0100
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-23 17:46 +0100
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 02:50 +0100
                Re: Dropping C GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 02:54 +0100
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-22 16:43 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-03-22 10:39 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-22 11:47 -0500
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 00:59 -0700
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 15:07 +0000
                Re: Dropping C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-03-19 15:37 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 17:16 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-19 20:30 +0000
                Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-19 21:24 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-03-19 23:06 +0000
                Re: Dropping C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-20 14:04 +0000
                Re: Dropping C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-03-19 15:32 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-19 19:03 -0500
                Re: Dropping C Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 02:13 +0000
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-20 14:25 +0100
                Re: Dropping C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-03-21 18:36 +0100
                Re: Dropping C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-19 23:33 +0100
                Re: Dropping C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-03-19 16:34 -0700
                Re: Dropping C asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 00:58 -0700
                Re: Dropping C Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 01:10 -0700
            Re: Dropping C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-19 14:25 +1300
  Re: Dropping C bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 12:19 +0000

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