Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language

From	BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language
Date	2018-02-13 12:28 -0600
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<p5vanl$bl8$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <fec7srFm5eaU1@mid.individual.net> <RDegC.653894$HZ5.496095@fx22.am4> <fee3psFm5eaU2@mid.individual.net> <f0rgC.17825$w26.6707@fx47.am4> <p5u958$e9d$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2/13/2018 2:55 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 13/02/18 02:17, bartc wrote:
>> On 12/02/2018 18:13, Ian Collins wrote:
>>> On 02/13/2018 12:11 AM, bartc wrote:
>>
>>>> Did you?
>>>
>>> Yes, nice and simple.
>>
>> You must have a perverse idea of what is simple.
> 
> There is a set of instructions to follow.  Follow these, and you should
> have the C2 compiler.  I have not followed them myself (I am totally
> uninterested in having a C2 compiler - at least at this stage).
> Installing cygwin on Windows is not a difficult task, nor is installing
> these packages (you click them from the list in the cygwin installer).
> The instructions here are simple in that the list of requirements is
> short and complete - you don't have to think for yourself.
> 
> And so on, through the installation.
> 
> It will be a time-consuming job.  But the instructions are all there -
> you don't need to figure things out.  You don't need any familiarity
> with clang or llvm, or git, or cmake, or any of the tools involved.
> 
> "Simple" does not mean "small", or "one step".
> 
>>
>>>> The above is a direct quote from the Windows installation instructions
>>>> (https://github.com/c2lang/c2compiler/blob/master/INSTALL_WIN.md).
>>>>
>>>> It relies heavily on Unix tools (a massive dependency if using Windows)
>>>> and on LLVM (a massive subsystem).
>>>
>>> If you are building a compiler, why wouldn't you use a well respected
>>> opensource compiler infrastructure project?
>>
>> Because it's complicated? And out of proportion to the complexity of the
>> language being processed, which looks simple.
> 
> If you are making a language that is a reasonable fit for llvm, then why
> not use it?  Rather than spending months making a limited little code
> generator for a single processor on a single OS, you can get a big,
> powerful system for free, with vastly more features.  Sure, it might
> take you a week to read through the documentation and play around with
> it - but it is a week, not months, and the result is far beyond what you
> would achieve in years.
> 

however, if in the nature of the project (say, targeting a 
custom/experimental CPU arch), and one needs to rebuild LLVM multiple 
times, then there is a problem... (or if even trying to build it once, 
and ones' PC is "not sufficiently monstrous", *).

even GCC has much faster iteration times (at least in the sense one can 
"actually get something done", rather than just spend the whole day just 
waiting for LLVM to recompile).

*: process may basically grind to a halt with HDD thrashing or result in 
the PC hard-freezing, "4GB of RAM and a 2GHz Celeron ain't enough for 
this". even a higher-end "rig" with 16GB and a Phenom II may still have 
a hard time. it is sorta managable on a PC with 32GB of RAM, an AMD-FX, 
a huge pagefile (112 GB), and an SSD (mostly for OS and huge pagefile), 
and even then it is still pretty slow ("rebuilding LLVM, now time to go 
off and watch some anime or something...").

like, not everyone has whatever sort of beast-like PCs the main devs are 
using to rebuild this thing...

at least with a small one-off compiler, one can have a reasonably fast 
build and iteration times.

while one could argue for using LCC as a front-end, it doesn't take much 
to realize LCC is basically a parser + AST walker, and as a result one 
either still needs to do most of the "hard part" themselves (or be faced 
with some particularly lackluster code generation).

though, if one goes through it a few times "separation of concerns" 
becomes relevant, and if the input to the backend is mostly precooked 
three-address-code or similar, making a backend isn't quite as hard.

well, apart from ISA issues, like fun with things like getting constants 
loaded into variables, dealing with displacements that are small or only 
exist for certain types, finding something useful to put into the 
"branch delay slot", or checking dependencies between logical 
instructions to get them loaded into an "instruction-block"/"packet", ...

so, for example, loading a 64-bit constant requires 4 operations, which 
may be done in parallel with 3 or 4 other instructions; and a branch 
effectively needs to be placed 8 or so instructions before the point at 
which the branch takes place (but, not more than this, as there are two 
instruction blocks in the delay-slot; ...).

though, for most other use-cases, there are only really a few targets 
which "actually matter" at this point:
* Windows x64
* Linux x86_64
* Linux ARM
** though A64 is making inroads.

and, for others, there is typically a particular target one has in mind.

or, there is some reason in particular one is writing a compiler backend 
in the first place.

and, for many HLLs, it is sufficient to basically just write a bytecode 
interpreter, and only do JITs for maybe a few select targets (ex: x64 
and ARM/Thumb). runs pretty much anywhere, even if the result is slow 
apart from the main targets.

or, for other use-cases, one can transpile to C and use an existing 
compiler to target the architecture.

Thread

Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 12:41 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 13:38 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 00:32 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:23 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:53 +0300
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-11 13:26 +0000
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:04 -0800
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 01:34 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:42 -0800
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:50 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 12:14 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:48 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-10 22:35 -0700
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:25 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 11:18 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 21:57 +0000
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-12 14:10 +1300
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-12 20:33 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 06:05 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:13 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 01:17 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 09:55 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 12:28 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:36 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 00:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:19 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:07 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 15:46 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 20:31 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:42 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 01:13 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 15:13 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-21 08:43 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 12:25 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:28 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:29 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-22 08:33 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:48 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 20:41 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 00:00 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 00:59 +0000
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 12:29 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 12:18 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 15:27 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 15:19 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 16:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:16 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:30 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 22:37 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 22:15 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 17:05 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:32 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:10 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.5itdn@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 12:57 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 20:29 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.nrdl0@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 19:22 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:00 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:46 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 08:49 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 09:52 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:47 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 05:11 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 21:52 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 14:45 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:45 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 05:35 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:24 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-13 13:14 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:38 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:25 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:39 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:42 +0200
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-15 13:17 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:41 +0100
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 17:25 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-12 17:28 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:01 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:51 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 19:28 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 20:02 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:32 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:42 +0100
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:26 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-02-13 08:06 -0500
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-13 15:16 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:53 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 15:22 -0600
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-12 12:26 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:45 +0100
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 15:52 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 17:13 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:15 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 21:42 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 23:21 +0100

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