Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language

From	Egor <egor@ruby.local>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language
Date	2018-02-14 13:25 +0200
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<cuidle-56c.ln1@ruby.opensrc.club> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <uF5gC.811010$rE1.542238@fx14.am4> <20180212122916.ed1d64b3b64af5cd70bccb61@gmail.com> <ECfgC.773861$ba4.49431@fx24.am4> <httale-995.ln1@ruby.opensrc.club> <19f464bc-178a-45cf-823b-de629798a62f@googlegroups.com>

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already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote:
> It seems like you were exposed to C for too long, Or not exposed enough to other languages.
Not counting VM (java/c#) and interpreted languages, I mostly use
assembly, C and C++, so I guess you have a point.
> The biggest C-ism in Windows API is how you pass all arrays, not just strings.
> In many (most ?) other languages arrays are passed as descriptors, containing at least, starting address and length, but sometimes other things as well, like offset of sub-array withing bigger array and sometimes even non-unit stride. Also, many other languages have real support for mulch-dimensional arrays. C also has something like that since C99, but Win32 API is in C90.
I believe that this is not influenced by C. It's simply the simplest
way to pass arrays. Having an object for describing an array is a pretty
high level concept. I've never seen it done like that in assembly, even
in environments that don't use C as the main language (e.g. DOS and
Megadrive).
> Everything passed by value is also C-ism, but less blatant than pointers instead of arrays.
This is another example of C codifying existing assembly practices.
In aforementioned environments where assembly prevails, it is usual to
pass arguments through registers. Each subroutine documented its inputs
and outputs, along with which registers are clobbered. Most of the time
the inputs were clobbered, because it'd be a waste to save those in
callee, when caller might not need to use the value anymore. This was
effectively pass by value, because caller would restore the original
value of the argument after the return of subroutine.

I'd argue that pass by reference is rarely needed. It only makes sense
to use it when you need to get output from function (use pointers for
that) or when you have something big (array/struct) that you want to
pass to function, but you don't want it to be modified (const *).
I guess in languages where everything is immutable by default, this
would make more sense, but for base types which are smaller or equal to
the size of a pointer, it's just an unnecessary extra layer of
complexity.
> Another C-ism is non-automatic memory management, where arrays are either caller-alocated (most of the time) or callee-alocated (rare in Win32 API, but exist), but who is responsible for allocation and de-alloocation has to be specified in docs and up-front.
Again, this is not a C-ism, this is just simplicity. All that an ABI is
concerned with, is passing arguments in and out of function. It isn't
aware about arrays, since the only way to pass an array is by pointer,
and that gets treated just like any other pointer.

Some objects might need extra cleanup (see c++ destructors) so you can't
have automatic memory management unless you treat pointers of different
types differently. c++ name decoration does this, but it can't be
applied universally as-is, as it encodes information in c++ types.

Thread

Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 12:41 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 13:38 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 00:32 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:23 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:53 +0300
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-11 13:26 +0000
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:04 -0800
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 01:34 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:42 -0800
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:50 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 12:14 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:48 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-10 22:35 -0700
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:25 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 11:18 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 21:57 +0000
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-12 14:10 +1300
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-12 20:33 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 06:05 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:13 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 01:17 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 09:55 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 12:28 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:36 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 00:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:19 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:07 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 15:46 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 20:31 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:42 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 01:13 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 15:13 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-21 08:43 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 12:25 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:28 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:29 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-22 08:33 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:48 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 20:41 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 00:00 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 00:59 +0000
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 12:29 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 12:18 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 15:27 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 15:19 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 16:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:16 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:30 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 22:37 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 22:15 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 17:05 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:32 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:10 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.5itdn@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 12:57 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 20:29 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.nrdl0@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 19:22 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:00 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:46 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 08:49 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 09:52 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:47 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 05:11 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 21:52 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 14:45 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:45 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 05:35 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:24 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-13 13:14 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:38 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:25 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:39 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:42 +0200
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-15 13:17 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:41 +0100
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 17:25 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-12 17:28 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:01 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:51 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 19:28 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 20:02 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:32 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:42 +0100
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:26 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-02-13 08:06 -0500
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-13 15:16 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:53 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 15:22 -0600
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-12 12:26 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:45 +0100
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 15:52 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 17:13 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:15 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 21:42 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 23:21 +0100

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