Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #27137

Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems
Date 2017-08-07 16:47 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <omajde$8fj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <8TJhB.889867$h63.129058@fx34.am4> <om881i$e9h$3@dont-email.me> <d88640a0-fb0d-da23-99ba-92915272ca2b@electrooptical.net> <omae6l$mi4$2@dont-email.me> <a0df2d14-257e-a609-5a87-454694a920e7@electrooptical.net>

Show all headers | View raw

Phil Hobbs wrote on 8/7/2017 3:27 PM:
> On 08/07/2017 03:18 PM, rickman wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs wrote on 8/7/2017 12:40 PM:
>>> On 08/06/2017 07:21 PM, rickman wrote:
>>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 8/6/2017 3:13 PM:
>>>>> On 06/08/17 17:51, rickman wrote:
>>>>>> John Devereux wrote on 8/6/2017 9:40 AM:
>>>>>>> Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03/08/17 16:03, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/01/2017 09:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 01/08/17 13:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 07/30/2017 02:05 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/07/17 17:05, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing is to concentrate the course work on stuff
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pick up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on your own, i.e. math and the more mathematical parts of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> engineering
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (especially signals & systems and electrodynamics).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming you can learn out of books without much difficulty,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The evidence is that /isn't/ the case :( Read comp.risks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> (which has an impressively high signal-to-noise ratio), or
>>>>>>>>>>>> watch the news (which doesn't).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dunno.  Nobody taught me how to program, and I've been doing it
>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>> I was a
>>>>>>>>>>> teenager.  I picked up good habits from reading books and other
>>>>>>>>>>> people's code.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but it was easier back then: the tools, problems
>>>>>>>>>> and solutions were, by and large, much simpler and more
>>>>>>>>>> self-contained.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not so sure.  Debuggers have improved out of all recognition,
>>>>>>>>> with two
>>>>>>>>> exceptions (gdb and Arduino, I'm looking at you).  Plus there are
>>>>>>>>> a whole
>>>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>>>> libraries available (for Python especially) so a determined
>>>>>>>>> beginner
>>>>>>>>> can get
>>>>>>>>> something cool working (after a fashion) fairly fast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, that's all true. The speed of getting something going
>>>>>>>> is important for a beginner. But if the foundation is "sandy"
>>>>>>>> then it can be necessary and difficult to get beginners
>>>>>>>> (and managers) to appreciate the need to progress to tools
>>>>>>>> with sounder foundations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The old time "sandy" tool was Basic. While Python is much
>>>>>>>> better than Basic, it is still "sandy" when it comes to
>>>>>>>> embedded real time applications.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems as though youngsters mostly start with Python and then
>>>>>>>>> start in
>>>>>>>>> on either
>>>>>>>>> webdev or small SBCs using Arduino / AVR Studio / Raspbian or (for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> ambitious) something like BeagleBone or (a fave) LPCxpresso.  Most
>>>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>>>> embedded work is pretty light-duty, so an M3 or M4 is good
>>>>>>>>> medicine.
>>>>>>>>> I'm much
>>>>>>>>> better at electro-optics and analog/RF circuitry than at MCUs or
>>>>>>>>> HDL,
>>>>>>>>> so I do
>>>>>>>>> only enough embedded things to get the whole instrument working.
>>>>>>>>> Fancy
>>>>>>>>> embedded
>>>>>>>>> stuff I either leave to the experts, do in hardware, or hive off
>>>>>>>>> to an
>>>>>>>>> outboard
>>>>>>>>> computer via USB serial, depending on the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wish more people took that attitude!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's certainly true that things get complicated fast, but they
>>>>>>>>> did in
>>>>>>>>> the old
>>>>>>>>> days too.  Of course the reasons are different: nowadays it's the
>>>>>>>>> sheer
>>>>>>>>> complexity of the silicon and the tools, whereas back then it was
>>>>>>>>> burn-and-crash
>>>>>>>>> development, flaky in-system emulators, and debuggers which (if
>>>>>>>>> they even
>>>>>>>>> existed) were almost as bad as Arduino.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed. The key difference is that with simple-but-unreliable
>>>>>>>> tools it is possible to conceive that mortals can /understand/
>>>>>>>> the tools limitations, and know when/where the tool is failing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That simply doesn't happen with modern tools; even the world
>>>>>>>> experts don't understand their complexity! Seriously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Consider C++. The *design committee* refused to believe C++
>>>>>>>> templates formed a Turing-complete language inside C++.
>>>>>>>> They were forced to recant when shown a correct valid C++
>>>>>>>> program that never completed compilation - because, during
>>>>>>>> compilation the compiler was (slowly) emitting the sequence
>>>>>>>> of prime numbers! What chance have mere mortal developers
>>>>>>>> got in the face of that complexity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think that particular criticism is really fair - it seems the
>>>>>>> (rather simple) C preprocessor is also "turing complete" or at least
>>>>>>> close to it e.g,.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3136686/is-the-c99-preprocessor-turing-complete
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or a C prime number generator that mostly uses the preprocessor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.cise.ufl.edu/~manuel/obfuscate/zsmall.hint
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At any rate "Compile-time processing" is a big thing now in modern
>>>>>>> c++,
>>>>>>> see e.g.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Compile Time Maze Generator (and Solver)
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXML1-Ty5U
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Funny, compile time program execution is something Forth has done for
>>>>>> decades.
>>>>>> Why is this important in other languages now?
>>>>>
>>>>> It isn't important.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is important is that the (world-expert) design committee
>>>>> didn't understand (and then refused to believe) the
>>>>> implications of their proposal.
>>>>>
>>>>> That indicates the tool is so complex and baroque as to
>>>>> be incomprehensible - and that is a very bad starting point.
>>>>
>>>> That's the point.  Forth is one of the simplest development tools you
>>>> will ever find.  It also has some of the least constraints.  The only
>>>> people who think it is a bad idea are those who think RPN is a problem
>>>> and object to other trivial issues.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I used to program in RPN routinely, still use RPN calculators
>>> exclusively, and don't like Forth.  Worrying about the state of the
>>> stack is something I much prefer to let the compiler deal with.  It's
>>> like C functions with ten positional parameters.
>>
>> If you are writing Forth code and passing 10 items into a definition,
>> you have missed a *lot* on how to write Forth code.  I can see why you
>> are frustrated.
>>
> I'm not frustrated, partly because I haven't written anything in Forth
> for over 30 years. ;)
>
> And I didn't say I was passing 10 parameters to a Forth word, either.
> It's just that having to worry about the state of the stack is so 1975.
> I wrote my last HP calculator program in the early '80s, and have no
> burning desire to do that again either.

You clearly mentioned 10 parameters, no?

I get that you don't fully understand Forth.  When I said "The only people 
who think it is a bad idea are those who think RPN is a problem and object 
to other trivial issues" by other trivial issues I was referring to the use 
of the stack.

-- 

Rick C

Back to comp.arch.embedded | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Engineering degree for embedded systems "hogwarts" <122707@EmbeddedRelated> - 2017-07-27 07:35 -0500
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2017-07-27 15:25 +0200
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-07-30 12:05 -0400
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-30 19:05 +0100
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-01 08:55 -0400
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-01 14:23 +0100
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-03 11:03 -0400
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 10:35 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-08-06 14:40 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 12:51 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 20:13 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 19:21 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:40 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 15:18 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 15:27 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 16:47 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 17:30 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 18:35 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 18:56 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 19:02 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 19:08 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-08-08 01:30 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 19:32 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 19:53 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 20:02 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-08-07 23:49 +0000
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 20:07 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 08:00 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-08-07 01:21 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 17:15 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 20:21 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-07 10:35 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-07 12:54 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-07 12:34 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:43 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 12:50 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:36 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-07 18:40 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 10:23 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 09:46 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 11:26 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 11:09 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 12:56 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 15:56 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 17:11 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 16:33 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-08 21:07 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-09 10:03 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-10 14:30 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-10 15:11 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-16 18:39 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-17 09:37 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-17 08:24 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-17 16:06 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-17 12:15 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-18 14:45 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-25 09:51 -0400
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-01 20:46 -0500
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-02 09:30 +0200
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-05 15:11 -0500
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-08-08 00:22 -0700
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 08:36 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 12:37 +0200
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-27 17:46 +0100
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-07-27 16:54 +0000
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-27 19:57 +0100
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-07-27 16:58 +0000
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-07-28 00:43 +0100
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-07-30 15:26 -0700
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2017-07-27 23:45 +0000
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-08-03 19:50 +0200
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-05 15:20 -0500
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 09:17 +0300
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-06 10:12 +0100
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 13:19 +0300
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-06 09:59 -0500
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-06 18:06 +0100
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 21:31 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-07 09:32 +0100
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-06 09:53 -0500
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-07 10:59 +0300
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-07 20:09 -0500
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-08 21:31 +0300
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2017-08-21 11:28 +0200

csiph-web