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Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems
Date 2017-08-07 15:18 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <omae6l$mi4$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <87a83cak6y.fsf@devereux.me.uk> <om7h7l$5bt$1@dont-email.me> <8TJhB.889867$h63.129058@fx34.am4> <om881i$e9h$3@dont-email.me> <d88640a0-fb0d-da23-99ba-92915272ca2b@electrooptical.net>

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Phil Hobbs wrote on 8/7/2017 12:40 PM:
> On 08/06/2017 07:21 PM, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 8/6/2017 3:13 PM:
>>> On 06/08/17 17:51, rickman wrote:
>>>> John Devereux wrote on 8/6/2017 9:40 AM:
>>>>> Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/08/17 16:03, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/01/2017 09:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/08/17 13:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 07/30/2017 02:05 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 30/07/17 17:05, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing is to concentrate the course work on stuff
>>>>>>>>>>> that's hard
>>>>>>>>>>> to pick up
>>>>>>>>>>> on your own, i.e. math and the more mathematical parts of
>>>>>>>>>>> engineering
>>>>>>>>>>> (especially signals & systems and electrodynamics).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Programming you can learn out of books without much difficulty,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The evidence is that /isn't/ the case :( Read comp.risks,
>>>>>>>>>> (which has an impressively high signal-to-noise ratio), or
>>>>>>>>>> watch the news (which doesn't).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dunno.  Nobody taught me how to program, and I've been doing it
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> I was a
>>>>>>>>> teenager.  I picked up good habits from reading books and other
>>>>>>>>> people's code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but it was easier back then: the tools, problems
>>>>>>>> and solutions were, by and large, much simpler and more
>>>>>>>> self-contained.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not so sure.  Debuggers have improved out of all recognition,
>>>>>>> with two
>>>>>>> exceptions (gdb and Arduino, I'm looking at you).  Plus there are
>>>>>>> a whole
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> libraries available (for Python especially) so a determined beginner
>>>>>>> can get
>>>>>>> something cool working (after a fashion) fairly fast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's all true. The speed of getting something going
>>>>>> is important for a beginner. But if the foundation is "sandy"
>>>>>> then it can be necessary and difficult to get beginners
>>>>>> (and managers) to appreciate the need to progress to tools
>>>>>> with sounder foundations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The old time "sandy" tool was Basic. While Python is much
>>>>>> better than Basic, it is still "sandy" when it comes to
>>>>>> embedded real time applications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems as though youngsters mostly start with Python and then start in
>>>>>>> on either
>>>>>>> webdev or small SBCs using Arduino / AVR Studio / Raspbian or (for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> ambitious) something like BeagleBone or (a fave) LPCxpresso.  Most
>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>> embedded work is pretty light-duty, so an M3 or M4 is good medicine.
>>>>>>> I'm much
>>>>>>> better at electro-optics and analog/RF circuitry than at MCUs or HDL,
>>>>>>> so I do
>>>>>>> only enough embedded things to get the whole instrument working.
>>>>>>> Fancy
>>>>>>> embedded
>>>>>>> stuff I either leave to the experts, do in hardware, or hive off
>>>>>>> to an
>>>>>>> outboard
>>>>>>> computer via USB serial, depending on the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish more people took that attitude!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's certainly true that things get complicated fast, but they did in
>>>>>>> the old
>>>>>>> days too.  Of course the reasons are different: nowadays it's the
>>>>>>> sheer
>>>>>>> complexity of the silicon and the tools, whereas back then it was
>>>>>>> burn-and-crash
>>>>>>> development, flaky in-system emulators, and debuggers which (if
>>>>>>> they even
>>>>>>> existed) were almost as bad as Arduino.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. The key difference is that with simple-but-unreliable
>>>>>> tools it is possible to conceive that mortals can /understand/
>>>>>> the tools limitations, and know when/where the tool is failing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That simply doesn't happen with modern tools; even the world
>>>>>> experts don't understand their complexity! Seriously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Consider C++. The *design committee* refused to believe C++
>>>>>> templates formed a Turing-complete language inside C++.
>>>>>> They were forced to recant when shown a correct valid C++
>>>>>> program that never completed compilation - because, during
>>>>>> compilation the compiler was (slowly) emitting the sequence
>>>>>> of prime numbers! What chance have mere mortal developers
>>>>>> got in the face of that complexity.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that particular criticism is really fair - it seems the
>>>>> (rather simple) C preprocessor is also "turing complete" or at least
>>>>> close to it e.g,.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3136686/is-the-c99-preprocessor-turing-complete
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or a C prime number generator that mostly uses the preprocessor
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cise.ufl.edu/~manuel/obfuscate/zsmall.hint
>>>>>
>>>>> At any rate "Compile-time processing" is a big thing now in modern c++,
>>>>> see e.g.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compile Time Maze Generator (and Solver)
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXML1-Ty5U
>>>>
>>>> Funny, compile time program execution is something Forth has done for
>>>> decades.
>>>> Why is this important in other languages now?
>>>
>>> It isn't important.
>>>
>>> What is important is that the (world-expert) design committee
>>> didn't understand (and then refused to believe) the
>>> implications of their proposal.
>>>
>>> That indicates the tool is so complex and baroque as to
>>> be incomprehensible - and that is a very bad starting point.
>>
>> That's the point.  Forth is one of the simplest development tools you
>> will ever find.  It also has some of the least constraints.  The only
>> people who think it is a bad idea are those who think RPN is a problem
>> and object to other trivial issues.
>>
>
> I used to program in RPN routinely, still use RPN calculators
> exclusively, and don't like Forth.  Worrying about the state of the
> stack is something I much prefer to let the compiler deal with.  It's
> like C functions with ten positional parameters.

If you are writing Forth code and passing 10 items into a definition, you 
have missed a *lot* on how to write Forth code.  I can see why you are 
frustrated.

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

Engineering degree for embedded systems "hogwarts" <122707@EmbeddedRelated> - 2017-07-27 07:35 -0500
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2017-07-27 15:25 +0200
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-07-30 12:05 -0400
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-30 19:05 +0100
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-01 08:55 -0400
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-01 14:23 +0100
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-03 11:03 -0400
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 10:35 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-08-06 14:40 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 12:51 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 20:13 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 19:21 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:40 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 15:18 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 15:27 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 16:47 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 17:30 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 18:35 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 18:56 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 19:02 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 19:08 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-08-08 01:30 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 19:32 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-07 19:53 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 20:02 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-08-07 23:49 +0000
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 20:07 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 08:00 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-08-07 01:21 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 17:15 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-06 20:21 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-07 10:35 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-07 12:54 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-07 12:34 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:43 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 12:50 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-08-07 12:36 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-07 18:40 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 10:23 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 09:46 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 11:26 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 11:09 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 12:56 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 15:56 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 17:11 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 16:33 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-08 21:07 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-09 10:03 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-10 14:30 +0300
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-10 15:11 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-16 18:39 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-17 09:37 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-17 08:24 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-17 16:06 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-17 12:15 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-18 14:45 +0200
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-08-25 09:51 -0400
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-01 20:46 -0500
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-02 09:30 +0200
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-05 15:11 -0500
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-08-08 00:22 -0700
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-08-08 08:36 +0100
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-08-08 12:37 +0200
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-27 17:46 +0100
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-07-27 16:54 +0000
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-27 19:57 +0100
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-07-27 16:58 +0000
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-07-28 00:43 +0100
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-07-30 15:26 -0700
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2017-07-27 23:45 +0000
  Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-08-03 19:50 +0200
    Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-05 15:20 -0500
      Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 09:17 +0300
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-06 10:12 +0100
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-06 13:19 +0300
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-06 09:59 -0500
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-06 18:06 +0100
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-08-06 21:31 -0400
                Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> - 2017-08-07 09:32 +0100
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-06 09:53 -0500
          Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-07 10:59 +0300
            Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-08-07 20:09 -0500
              Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-08-08 21:31 +0300
        Re: Engineering degree for embedded systems Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2017-08-21 11:28 +0200

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