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Groups > sci.physics.electromag > #20103

Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors.

From John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org>
Newsgroups sci.physics.electromag, sci.electronics.design, sci.physics
Subject Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors.
Date 2017-07-24 17:16 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <ol5rbk$vef$9@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <5975ccdb$0$833$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <ol4u34$1m7d$1@gioia.aioe.org> <59760a9e$0$759$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <ol597v$c3c$1@gioia.aioe.org> <59766bf3$0$738$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/24/2017 4:51 PM, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
> On 7/24/2017 7:02 PM, Serg io wrote:
>> On 7/24/2017 9:56 AM, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
>>> On 7/24/2017 3:52 PM, Serg io wrote:
>>>> On 7/24/2017 5:32 AM, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
>>>>> On 7/24/2017 12:19 PM, John S wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/24/2017 5:10 AM, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/23/2017 11:34 PM, Serg io wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/23/2017 3:33 AM, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
>    ...
>   ..
>>>>>>>>> And Sergeio is of course completely wrong to claim that it is
>>>>>>>>> "70 to 83% or so" for transistors. They also can reach 99%, if
>>>>>>>>> the switching is done at relatively low frequency (or even
>>>>>>>>> up to a few MHz with resonant drive). A value of 70% would be
>>>>>>>>> typical only if you use GHz frequencies, and nobody in his right
>>>>>>>>> mind would do that purely for power conversion purposes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> got a URL for your 99% effecient transistor power supply ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would I need one? I know how to compute those things
>>>>>>> and how to build them. I knew it even when the web did not
>>>>>>> yet exist, and URLs likewise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mainly because your claim seems unreasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it unreasonable? Working with voltages in the order of
>>>>> a few hundred volt (as for instance a converter for a mains-fed
>>>>> fluorescent lamp) and transistor saturation voltages of a few
>>>>> tenths of a volt, you have conduction losses in the order of
>>>>> 0.1%. The other switching losses scale with frequency so staying
>>>>> at low f (e.g. 35 kHz) keeps them low as well (and of course
>>>>> zero-current switching will help, like in a correctly tuned
>>>>> half-bridge converters). The passive-component losses are mainly
>>>>> in the inductors, which can have a Q-factor of e few hundred at
>>>>> those frequencies, so no need for more than 1% losses.
>>>>>
>>>>> So based on those facts, it is not unreasonable at all. On the
>>>>> contrary, your claim that the losses should be much higher is
>>>>> unreasonable! Can you give a mechanism that would make those
>>>>> high losses probable?!
>>>>
>>>> those are design goals, not facts.
>>>
>>> The question was why they are *unreasonable!* And they
>>> are based on clear enough reasoning for you to understand,
>>> so it would be *your* burden of proof to convince us that
>>> they are "unreasonable".
>>
>> bullshit.  your working design demonstrating it meets 99% effeciency is
>> the proof.  OR, if you got a URL to an in production unit.
>>
>>>>  ..  if you find a URL that points to an
>>>> existing 99% power supply in production, that would be fact.
>>>
>>> Lots of URLs point there:
>>>    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=99%25+efficiency+half-bridge
>>>
>>> Do your own work if you want to sort them out!
>>
>> that is only a half rectifying bridge. not an entire power supply.
> 
> Why should it be? The Magamp examples that were claimed here
> to be 99% efficient were also not an entire power supply. In
> fact it was completely unspecified what exactly they converted
> into what! Fact is, for a half-bridge converting DC into some
> AC frequency the efficiency can 99% plus.
> 
>>    and
>> the bridge is made of SiC
> 
> Irrelevant. Si can do the same. You need SiC to make the paper
> accepted. (The 99% is no big deal, it's "novel" because of SiC!)
> 
>> so...  the 99% limitation is the front end rectifiers, from ac to
>> dc-ish, the diode drop.
> 
> There you might have a full diode bridge, with say 2*0.8V drop
> for a 300V DC output voltage (for 240V mains), so that's 99.5%
> efficient as an additional step. Not really spoiling it!
> 
> You might even use a synchronous rectifier with MOS switches
> where you can make the drop as low as you want by using very
> big ones (50/60Hz AC really will not give you large capacitive
> losses!) But of course no-one will do that since it is not
> cost-effective to get rid of just this 0.5% loss.
> 
> So really, you should stop nit-picking. The claim "70 to 83%
> or so" may be true for cheap small battery loaders, but for
> large power conversion units (like the solid state units in
> power distribution) it may even be closer to 99.9% than 99%.
> There they have to compete with copper-iron transformers,
> which definitely (as opposed, or perhaps not, to Magamps)
> can beat 99%.
> 

Please provide a link to these "large power conversion units (like the 
solid state units in power distribution)". I would like to look at the 
specifications.

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Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-15 13:43 -0400
  Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-15 18:39 +0000
  Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-15 18:31 +0000
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2017-07-15 20:09 +0100
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-15 19:19 +0000
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 05:44 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 15:24 +0000
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 12:17 -0400
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 17:07 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:42 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 18:05 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-21 13:46 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:07 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 19:30 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 17:31 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 22:11 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:04 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-22 00:22 +0000
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-15 18:46 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-16 02:00 +0000
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-15 22:38 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-16 03:07 +0000
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-16 09:20 +0200
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-15 21:46 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-16 02:13 +0000
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 05:49 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 15:26 +0000
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 12:45 -0400
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-21 12:08 -0500
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 17:10 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:43 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 18:07 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:10 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 19:32 +0000
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 17:32 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 22:11 +0000
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-22 10:51 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 17:55 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 17:58 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-22 18:56 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-22 21:25 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-23 20:01 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-24 05:35 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-24 08:39 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-24 20:15 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-25 11:56 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-25 20:23 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-26 20:28 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-29 18:47 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-29 21:18 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-29 23:59 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-31 17:05 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2017-07-24 20:13 -0500
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2017-07-17 22:29 +0000
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-21 04:18 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 15:29 +0000
  Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-15 12:51 -0700
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-15 23:47 -0500
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2017-07-16 00:58 -0400
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-16 09:22 +0200
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2017-07-17 01:13 -0400
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-17 08:46 -0500
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 06:26 -0400
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 15:32 +0000
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-21 11:09 -0500
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-21 21:44 -0400
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-21 22:17 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <nobody@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-22 02:16 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-23 10:33 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-23 16:34 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-24 12:10 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-24 05:19 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-24 12:32 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-24 08:52 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-24 16:56 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Serg io <invaalid@invalid.com> - 2017-07-24 12:02 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-24 23:51 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-24 17:16 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-25 01:12 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-24 18:25 -0500
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-25 11:54 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-24 17:19 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-24 17:10 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-24 23:33 +0200
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-24 21:02 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:12 -0400
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 17:25 +0000
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:45 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-21 18:08 +0000
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-07-21 18:53 -0400
                Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-07-22 00:23 +0000
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 06:00 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-07-21 09:48 -0400
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:30 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-21 17:30 +0200
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:34 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-21 13:08 -0500
  Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-07-15 19:51 -0500
    Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-21 06:05 -0400
      Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-07-21 19:36 -0500
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. Jos Bergervoet <jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> - 2017-07-22 10:39 +0200
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-22 12:47 -0400
            Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-26 18:18 -0400
              Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-07-26 18:27 -0500
        Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2017-07-22 11:40 -0400
          Re: Question about power capacity of electrical motors. "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-07-23 14:32 -0500

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