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Re: CH4 for Odd

From Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: CH4 for Odd
Date 2017-06-14 15:55 -0500
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <ohs7st$6sv$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <0ee2d640-af96-4f4d-8832-e37f34492f5f@googlegroups.com> <ohs314$1u7u$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ohs4bl$5pv$1@pcls7.std.com>

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On 6/14/17 2:55 PM, Michael Moroney wrote:
> Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 6/14/17 1:46 PM, john wrote:
>>> http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/Odd.GIF
>>> Each coloured ball spends half its time on its Hydrogen and the other half on the central Carbon.
>>>
> 
>> So what's interesting about this is that those colored balls seem to
>> have some odd behaviors -- sometimes there are 2 on a hydrogen,
>> sometimes 1, sometimes 0; sometimes there are four on the carbon,
>> sometimes 3, sometimes 5. Sometimes all the little balls are all on one
>> half of the carbon's perimeter, sometimes they're spread out. Sometimes,
>> the little balls go around the hydrogen at low tangential speed and then
>> they hit the carbon and speed up with a big jump in tangential speed,
>> which would violate conservation of energy.
> 
>> Basically John: Are you serious?
> 
> Also, it isn't completely symmetrical, with each hydrogen/corner of the
> tetrahedron indistinguishable from any other.  All of the retarded
> precessing spinny things precess around a certain axis, making that
> axis different from the equivalent axis through the tetrahedron in
> another direction.  This is different from real methane, where there
> is no way to tell any one hydrogen from any other, like an unlabeled
> regular tetrahedron.
> 

Yes, indeed, which was the the point of the original exercise.

Compare with benzene, where there is a ring and therefore an axis and a 
preferred direction. This is why all the axes of spinning in his benzene 
thingy are aligned to this same axis.

But with methane, there is no single preferred direction, and so no 
obvious way to lined up all the axes of spinning without introducing a 
preferred direction that is not there in real methane. Methane has a 
different symmetry than a planar molecule, and John cannot accommodate 
with his spinny thing idea.

Now, if he had tried to do it so that the axes of spinning of all the 
hydrogen atoms had passed through the center of the carbon atom, then at 
least he would have been able to preserve their symmetry, but this 
leaves the problem of the carbon atom, for which you cannot pick ANY 
fixed axis of spinning without breaking the symmetry of the molecule.

I had to tell him where to put the centers of the carbon atoms. I had to 
tell him to respect the known sizes of the atoms. I just told him how to 
align the axes of the hydrogen atoms. I'm not going to tell him how to 
solve the carbon atom axis problem.

-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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Thread

CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 11:46 -0700
  Re: CH4 for Odd "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-06-14 12:32 -0700
  Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 14:32 -0500
    Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 14:42 -0500
      Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 14:27 -0700
        Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 15:13 -0700
          Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 08:38 -0500
        Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 08:33 -0500
          Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-15 09:35 -0700
            Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 11:14 -0700
        Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 08:50 -0500
          Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 07:08 -0700
            Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 07:40 -0700
              Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 10:46 -0500
              Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-15 16:05 +0000
            Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 10:41 -0500
    Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 19:55 +0000
      Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 15:55 -0500
      Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 14:16 -0700
        Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-15 12:39 +0000
          Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-15 09:33 -0700
            Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 16:40 -0500
              Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-16 00:30 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 15:53 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-16 21:50 -0700
      Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 20:29 -0700
        Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-14 21:26 -0700
        Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-15 12:48 +0000
          Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 08:22 -0700
            Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 10:49 -0500
            Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-15 16:12 +0000
              Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 18:24 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-16 07:17 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 04:22 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 08:16 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 06:49 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 15:10 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-16 21:37 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-16 15:03 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 08:50 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-16 19:44 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 15:07 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-17 06:14 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-17 14:10 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-17 21:24 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-17 15:52 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-17 16:44 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-18 00:09 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-17 21:50 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-18 02:50 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-17 21:57 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 12:40 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-18 08:42 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-18 08:51 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-18 09:03 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-19 01:04 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 12:51 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-19 01:03 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-18 21:33 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 12:52 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-20 04:49 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 08:36 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-18 21:31 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 12:48 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 04:53 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 08:38 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-20 14:45 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 08:09 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 10:57 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 09:41 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 09:48 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 15:00 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-21 09:51 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 10:10 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 15:08 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 13:27 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 15:43 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-21 20:49 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-22 00:19 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-22 03:58 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:39 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:38 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 06:13 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 06:22 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 07:33 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 07:55 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-22 15:21 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 08:40 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-22 16:57 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:36 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 08:44 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:38 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:33 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 10:10 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-21 18:23 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 08:21 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 11:01 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-21 18:37 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 12:37 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 13:02 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-21 21:07 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 17:46 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-21 21:35 -0400
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 04:01 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 05:10 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 08:53 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:41 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:19 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:26 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:51 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 15:25 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 15:24 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 17:45 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 19:30 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-23 03:33 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-23 07:25 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-23 08:58 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-23 17:40 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-23 14:32 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 05:28 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-24 14:38 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 13:02 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-24 23:29 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 17:45 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 03:14 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-25 03:16 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 21:05 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-27 00:04 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-26 17:32 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-27 01:32 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-27 05:09 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 15:46 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 15:28 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 03:14 +0000
                Re: CH4 for Odd poraty350@gmail.com - 2017-06-20 01:39 -0700
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 08:34 -0500
                Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 08:07 -0500
  Re: CH4 for Odd Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 16:00 -0500
  Re: CH4 for Odd Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-14 17:40 -0500
  CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 17:51 -0700
    CH4 for Odd john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 20:22 -0700
      CH4 for Odd HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 02:54 -0700

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