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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #422503

Re: GPS Again.

From "HGW..." <hgw@....>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity, sci.physics
Subject Re: GPS Again.
Date 2017-06-14 10:09 +1000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <ohpure$gss$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (14 earlier) <ohlpdu$1e20$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ohlv6b$mqj$1@dont-email.me> <ohmm1k$1524$1@gioia.aioe.org> <eq92poFjauoU2@mid.individual.net> <y9mdnemoYpoxst3EnZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 14/06/17 04:32, Tom Roberts wrote:
> On 6/12/17 6/12/17 - 10:00 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

>>
>> Oh, shifting ground. Either the wavelength is absolute, or it's not. 
>> You cannot have a moderately absolute wavelength.
> 
> Yes, Wilson does not have a theory, he just has a bunch of rather vague 
> feelings and fantasies that change with his whim. Elsewhere it suited 
> him to claim "wavelength is absolute", and here it suited him to claim 
> otherwise.

Tom, whether you like it or not, the GPS system now uses wave count 
rather than light speed because the former improves accuracy by about an 
order of magnitude. That is to be expected since, in the absence of an 
aether, signal speed is obviously source dependent whilst wavelength is 
pretty well constant.

>      Of course his notion "wavelength is absolute" is solidly
>      refuted experimentally: if it were true then astronomically
>      distant objects would not have redshifts measured with
>      wavelength-sensitive spectrometers.

All lengths are absolute. Wavelength is absolute....but that does not 
mean it is invariant. Gawd! I thought any real physicist would know that.

> Also, most of what he said above is just plain wrong, and in the GPS 
> atmospheric effects affect more than just "height error" -- they affect 
> the computed position and its errorbars in all four dimensions (not just 
> height). But Wilson is clueless about errorbars. And about how the GPS 
> actually works.

I know perfectly well what error bars are and know they are hardly 
needed for civilian usage.. The length of each signal's path through the 
atmosphere is easy to calculate from its clock's ephemeris...and it is 
the same correction that was used previously for light speed variations. 
We are talking about only a wavelength or two at most because air's RI 
is only about 0.0003 even at sea level and most speed change occurs in 
only the lowest 10000 metres....and as I pointed out, if the four 
satellites are well away from the horizon, a similar error in all four 
wave counts results in only a height error...which is easy to fix in 
civilian usage.
Do you not agree that points on an particular Earth radius vector have 
the same ratio ECI coordinates...apart from distance along that vector?


> Tom Roberts


-- 

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Thread

GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-05-27 06:49 +1000
  Re: GPS Again. Ckeho Baùkora <unukn@owyqar.og> - 2017-05-26 21:01 +0000
    Re: GPS Again. "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-26 15:49 -0700
      Re: GPS Again. Ckeho Baùkora <unukn@owyqar.og> - 2017-05-27 09:20 +0000
  Re: GPS Again. dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-05-26 15:50 -0700
  Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 17:58 -0500
  GPS Again. "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-26 16:14 -0700
    GPS Again. "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-26 16:38 -0700
  Re: GPS Again. xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-05-26 16:25 -0700
  Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-05-27 00:18 +0000
  Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-26 19:51 -0500
    Re: GPS Again. Ckeho Baùkora <unukn@owyqar.og> - 2017-05-27 10:37 +0000
      Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 09:57 -0500
        Re: GPS Again. Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-05-30 20:52 +0200
          Re: GPS Again. Ernest Rivers <erwm@weicnne.ac> - 2017-05-30 19:17 +0000
          Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 15:23 -0500
            Re: GPS Again. Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-05-30 22:53 +0200
              Re: GPS Again. Ernest Schwanenflügel <erwm@wanenf.oa> - 2017-05-30 20:59 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-05-31 00:42 +0200
              Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 19:03 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-05-30 21:30 -0500
          Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-05-30 19:01 -0500
        Re: GPS Again. Ernest Rivers <erwm@weicnne.ac> - 2017-05-30 19:15 +0000
          Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-09 11:37 +1000
            Re: GPS Again. Jim Limey <eeug@dnne.ri> - 2017-06-09 14:32 +0000
              Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-09 12:51 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Kitubu Nkyaku <akntuu@buwkau.kk> - 2017-06-09 18:52 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-10 09:23 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-10 11:23 +1000
              Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-10 11:21 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Kitubu Nkyaku <akntuu@buwkau.kk> - 2017-06-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 19:38 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Nými Icelulózy <ejienm@wzsfwe.ul> - 2017-06-16 11:30 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-16 10:40 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 11:11 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 21:20 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 12:31 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-10 22:40 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 23:20 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-11 05:14 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-10 22:16 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-11 07:19 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-06-10 16:11 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-10 18:32 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-11 14:43 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-13 07:50 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Lolek Atoru <oitiruc@rwuca.oa> - 2017-06-13 20:56 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 09:25 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-13 17:02 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 12:36 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-13 20:04 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 04:43 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-14 20:11 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 14:47 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-11 22:35 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 15:44 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 19:00 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 11:39 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 02:33 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-11 22:42 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 23:27 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 04:47 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 08:20 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 17:18 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 10:06 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Kotovanich Nzerovu <ivhvruo@wovewvw.ev> - 2017-06-15 17:30 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 18:15 -0400
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 22:32 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 20:48 -0400
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-13 01:52 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 19:57 -0400
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 00:46 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-12 09:58 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 15:08 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 10:37 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 17:21 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 17:40 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 18:05 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 18:19 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 19:16 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 19:43 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 18:25 -0400
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 18:45 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 10:35 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-12 11:05 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 23:29 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 20:12 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 13:54 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 12:47 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-13 04:13 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 12:59 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-06-12 23:03 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-13 04:22 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 13:00 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-13 13:32 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 10:09 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 09:34 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Серг ио <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 18:42 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 12:40 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 04:06 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-06-14 01:20 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 23:19 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 23:46 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-14 20:07 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-14 09:17 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 08:26 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-16 20:40 -0400
                Re: GPS Again. Ecembre Abin <umueuu@eibbwaw.ee> - 2017-06-17 08:05 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-17 22:20 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-17 07:58 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-14 17:06 -0400
        Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-05-31 09:58 +1000
  Re: GPS Again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-05-27 07:36 +0200
    Re: GPS Again. "HGW... DSc." <hgw@....> - 2017-05-28 10:57 +1000
  Re: GPS Again. Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 07:02 -0700
    Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-01 09:00 +1000
      Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 23:42 +0000
        Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-01 19:36 +1000
          Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 05:33 -0700
            Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-02 19:51 +1000
              Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-03 05:10 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-04 08:08 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-03 15:27 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-04 08:50 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. pnalsing@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 19:37 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 07:09 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-04 16:06 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Prudence Youngs <usue@weuem.ge> - 2017-06-04 11:11 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 14:23 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. Prudence Youngs <usue@weuem.ge> - 2017-06-04 12:33 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-04 18:17 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-04 05:06 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Prudence Youngs <usue@weuem.ge> - 2017-06-04 12:12 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. anne <0140519@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 05:32 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-05 08:48 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-04 16:09 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-05 11:12 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-04 19:24 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-05 16:38 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-05 04:49 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-06-05 05:53 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-06 08:38 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-05 20:30 -0700
                Re: GPS Again. Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 15:00 +0200
                Re: GPS Again. Prudence Youngs <usue@weuem.ge> - 2017-06-04 11:10 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 13:25 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-05 08:46 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-04 23:13 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-05 11:16 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-05 09:26 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-06 08:46 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-05 23:17 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-07 10:11 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 03:04 +0000
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-07 14:58 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 12:17 -0500
                Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-08 09:06 +1000
                Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-05 00:49 +0000

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