Re: High level language for writing Forth

From	Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: High level language for writing Forth
Date	2017-04-22 18:19 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<odgo7j$19g$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <od9jg0$4ej$1@dont-email.me> <odel20$d4f$1@dont-email.me> <9a6d01ae-10a1-4f66-9326-696adfb029b8@googlegroups.com> <odeqae$o2c$1@dont-email.me> <b666be23-6c9c-43f1-aa90-8bd771b7c5f7@googlegroups.com>

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On 4/22/2017 5:01 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:42:37 PM UTC-7, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:
>> On 4/21/2017 11:53 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
>>> This is premature optimization!
>>
>> That why I wish I could see the generated code, it might not make a
>> difference after optimization but I don't have a way of finding out
>> right now,
> 
> Well, don't worry about it.
> 
> My point is that if you want speed, then you need to write in assembly-language. Any high-level language is going to be slow, but if this is just a learning exercise then don't worry about it --- most programs are okay with a slow language, because they aren't doing any heavy-duty processing, and the computer is very fast --- people program in Python and Ruby and are happy with them, although they are very slow.
> 

I expect it to be slower, but there is no point in making it worse by 
picking a poor implementation language. I wrote a small simple program 
using some of the code to implement stacks and Go did well, better than 
my C compiler for MSP430 CPUs so I won't worry about it and just use it.

>>> Also, a Forth VM written in any high-level language is going to be significantly slower than generating machine-code with an STC Forth --- so the difference between C and Go in speed doesn't matter --- so long as you don't think that Perl (John Passaniti) or Python (Juergen Pintaske) is a good language to write a Forth VM in, you should get reasonable speed.
>>>
>>>> So its back to using C for now and finish what I started, I'm pretty
>>>> close anyway with the C code to start testing the VM.
>>>
>>> C has a lot of problems of its own --- Anton Ertl complains about this continually --- I wouldn't use C.
>>

After looking at the Go generated code it's optimizing fairly well so I 
will write the VM in Go as a programming exercise.

> 
> Another choice you might consider is GCC. This language has a lot of features beyond basic C. One of those features is the ability to dedicate registers globally --- this means that your stack pointer can be a register rather than a memory variable --- this can boost the speed considerably!
> 

GCC is Gnu C/C++ compiler, it's probably the reason why Anton curses at 
C, it has a lot of bugs that they don't bother fixing and optimization 
sometimes deletes needed code, so I will skip that.

>> I want to use Go for other purposes and I will but it would have been
>> interesting to use this a learning experience, I might still do it
>> anyway after I finish the C code so I have something to compare it
>> against. The whole purpose of this is to have it be easy to move to a
>> new PC without having to deal with a different assembler for each processor.
> 
> All computers use 64-bit x86 nowadays.
> 

This project is meant as a tool for embedded CPUs, the Windows version 
is possible core for a tethered Forth for various non Intel CPUs that is 
simple and easy to change.


>>
>> Poor baby, not being loved. I firmly believe that the only one that can
>> make one happy is oneself, others can help, but most are in the way.
> 
> I don't aspire to be loved --- being employed would be nice though.

Pulling your leg, I'm quite aware on your positions on the various 
personalities here, it's not you are shy about it.

> 
> As long as I can remember, Forth programmers have not been considered to be programmers at all. None of the Forth Inc. books discuss structs, and the ANS-Forth standard does not make any mention of structs. It is generally believed that Forth programmers don't know what structs are, and hence that they aren't programmers at all. It is possible to write FIELD in ANS-Forth (this was one of the first things I wrote in the novice-package), but this is definitely intermediate-level programming --- the novice Forth programmer is not going to figure this out on his own --- and, for the most part, nobody is going to provide him with FIELD or even show an example of Forth code that uses FIELD so he could realize that FIELD exists.
> 
> Because FIELD is not in the ANS-Forth standard, there can be different implementations available that behave differently. For example, Forth-200x uses the name FIELD: for some obscure reason (afaik, FIELD has been the name since the 1980s). I challenge any of the comp.lang.forth experts to post code for FIELD here now --- most likely, none of them are able to do so.
> 

Structures, Unions, database code, Networking Stacks, Multi-Tasking, and 
various data types   are all vital parts to programming, quite a few 
people are unaware of why they are useful which is OK since you can get 
around without them sometimes but when they make that the only 
acceptable way to look at things they lost me, not that they care. 
Ignorance is not a virtue.


-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

Thread

High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-19 18:32 -0500
  Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-20 00:24 +0000
    Re: High level language for writing Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-19 14:42 -1000
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-19 20:33 -0500
        Re: High level language for writing Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-19 16:21 -1000
        Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-19 19:41 -0700
          Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-19 23:28 -0500
      Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-20 17:02 +0000
        Re: High level language for writing Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-20 09:48 -1000
          Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 09:42 +0000
            Re: High level language for writing Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-21 09:07 -0500
              Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-21 17:04 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-21 11:17 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-21 17:36 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 20:32 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-21 15:35 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 20:39 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-21 22:47 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 20:29 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-21 22:45 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-22 04:49 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-22 10:54 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 03:04 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-22 05:12 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 04:30 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 05:00 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 05:40 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing [unum] Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-22 16:51 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing [unum] Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-22 13:36 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing [unum] Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-22 22:59 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing [unum] Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-22 18:43 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing [unum] Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-23 09:33 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 11:23 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 04:59 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-29 03:05 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-29 09:35 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-22 12:56 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-29 03:08 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-29 09:46 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-29 02:45 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-29 13:44 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-29 07:00 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-29 07:31 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-29 16:38 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-29 04:10 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-29 11:35 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-29 16:33 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-05 15:24 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-05 20:16 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-05 22:06 +0200
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-05 21:45 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-05 21:54 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-06 10:06 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-06 13:09 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-06 11:04 +0000
              Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 20:28 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-21 12:27 -1000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-22 04:55 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 02:01 +0200
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-22 04:58 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-21 23:41 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 22:15 +0200
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-06 13:28 +0000
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-27 02:51 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-04-27 12:09 +0200
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-29 02:48 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-29 03:09 +0000
    Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-19 20:11 -0500
  Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-19 19:34 -0700
    Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-19 23:22 -0500
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-19 21:35 -0700
        Re: High level language for writing Forth Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-04-20 05:12 +0000
        Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-20 01:15 -0500
          Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-19 23:25 -0700
          Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-21 23:12 -0500
            Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-21 21:53 -0700
              Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 00:42 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-21 23:44 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 03:08 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-22 04:39 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-22 12:37 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 11:33 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 14:10 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-22 15:01 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-22 23:38 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 16:30 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-22 18:01 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-23 09:25 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-23 06:32 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-23 07:36 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-24 14:32 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 18:19 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-22 18:05 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 21:51 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-23 06:54 +0300
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-23 09:16 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-23 18:41 +0300
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-24 14:35 +0100
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-23 06:15 -0700
              Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 08:04 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-22 11:44 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-22 12:16 -0700
              Re: High level language for writing Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-22 22:52 -0400
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-20 07:49 +0300
    Re: High level language for writing Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-20 19:47 +0200
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-20 15:19 -0500
  Re: High level language for writing Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-04-20 08:06 +0200
  Re: High level language for writing Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-20 04:35 -0700
  Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-04-25 17:03 -0500
    Re: High level language for writing Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-26 01:58 -0700
  Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0500
    Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 18:37 -0700
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 20:52 -0500
        Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 19:25 -0700
          Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:44 -0700
            Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 17:27 -0500
              Re: High level language for writing Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 19:43 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 23:55 -0500
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:59 -0700
                Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 23:58 -0500
    Re: High level language for writing Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 07:00 -0700
      Re: High level language for writing Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 12:05 -0500

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