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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #454738

Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core?

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core?
Date 2017-04-02 01:56 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <obq3kh$skm$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <58dc3c63$0$57932$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com> <38f6e8e9-b9ea-46e7-9169-bed65a02906e@googlegroups.com> <58e0695b$0$38578$b1db1813$2411a48f@news.astraweb.com> <obpshp$djn$1@dont-email.me> <58e07ff4$0$43893$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com>

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On 4/2/2017 12:36 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 02/04/17 13:55, rickman wrote:
>> On 4/1/2017 10:59 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>> On 31/03/17 15:40, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 6:59:53 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>>> On 29/03/17 02:12, amdx wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/28/2017 2:22 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/03/17 13:18, amdx wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2017 6:16 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/17 23:25, amdx wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2017 6:57 AM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg, you seem not understand the innermost sense of the
>>>>>>>>>>> crystal-
>>>>>>>>>>> radio people. They are closely related to audiophools, and it is
>>>>>>>>>>> quite impossible to use sensible technical argumentation here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   I don't get that at all, can you back that up with any facts?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~1MHz, Q=500, bandwidth ~ 2KHz. Remind me why you need Q>1500?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  You haven't connected an antenna, and tried to drive a headset
>>>>>>>> yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Umm, I think that was me in about 1971.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More voltage does not create better audio.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   But if it is a very weak signal on the antenna, you don't want to
>>>>>>>> waste any signal in loss resistances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You start to *reject* some of the received power as soon as the
>>>>>>> Q passes 200ish, and you destroy the audio at the same time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can quadruple your received power by doubling your coil
>>>>>>> diameter, or fitting a longer wire. That's *far* FAR more
>>>>>>> effective than saving 0.2% by using higher Q.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Crystal radios do not use the coil to collect RF energy from the
>>>>>> air,
>>>>>> a long wire antenna of 25ft to 150 is attached tothe coil to pickup
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> RF signal.
>>>>>>   If you want to discuss loop antennas, start a new thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With a crystal ear-piece, you still may have an impedance matching
>>>>>>> problem. For that, you should use an audio transformer *after*
>>>>>>> the detector.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to puncture your dogma.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Take a breath!
>>>>>>  I'll start simple, Coil and tuning cap have a unloaded Q of
>>>>>> 1000. To extract maximum power you use a load that matches the
>>>>>> Q times Xl of the coil. Loading the coil with it's matched
>>>>>> impedance lowers the Q to 500.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're making slightly more sense than Rickman, who hasn't
>>>>> responded to *any* of the numbers I suggested, but one thing
>>>>> still puzzles me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why worry about increasing Q above 500, when you can get more
>>>>> than the extra 0.2% (lost energy at Q=500) by adding 3 inches
>>>>> more antenna wire?
>>>>
>>>> Possible answer:
>>>>
>>>> Because, if you actually need Q=500 for selectivity, an LC tank
>>>> with an unloaded Q of 500 leaves you no power to drive an earphone?
>>>> And any improvement in unloaded tank 'Q' translates directly into more
>>>> power available for audio output?
>>>
>>> James, thanks.
>>>
>>> That's the sanest answer yet and goes some way to explaining
>>> what the xtal guys are after.
>>>
>>> However, the single-diode detector is a very assymetric load.
>>> That's going to affect things a bit, don't you think? By which
>>> I mean that the coil will "see" the load during rising amplitude,
>>> but not during falling amplitude. The coupling to a crystal
>>> earpiece (generally capacitive, but highly reactive load) is
>>> gonna make quite things weird, by pulling the resonant frequency
>>> around a lot, dependent on the audio signal...
>>>
>>> I should pull out my old xtal earpieces and measure the capacitance.
>>> I suspect they'd detune a high-Q front end quite a bit, and that
>>> really calls into question the use of Q to limit bandwidth.
>>
>> I'm unclear what you are describing.  When you say "detune" you are not
>> describing an effect on the Q, but rather an effect on the tuned
>> frequency.
>
> Both. When the diode conducts (as it must to transmit power)
> it connects the filter capacitance and the capacitance of the
> earpiece to the tuned circuit. This will happen whenever the
> diode is forward biassed, i.e. when the audio signal is rising.
>
> The extra capacitance on rising audio signals will pull the tuned
> circuit to a much lower frequency. As soon as the diode turns off
> (when the audio signal starts to fall), the tuned circuit will
> jump to a higher frequency, perhaps receiving a different station,
> and hence affecting the audio signal once again.
>
> I would expect a double-hump response in the overall receiver,
> and the gap between the humps will depend on the filter and
> earpiece capacitance.

Maybe you could build one and test that?


>> If the capacitance of the earpiece impacts the tuning of the
>> receiver, the adjustment of the tuning capacitor would make up for that
>> when operated.
>>
>> Or do you mean detune as a way of describing the reduced Q from the
>> loading of the circuit by the earpiece?  How exactly would the
>> capacitance of a crystal earpiece affect the loading?
>>
>> When you measure the capacitance of the earpiece, also measure the
>> resistance at audio frequencies.  The capacitance is only significant in
>> that context.
>
> Fair enough. I think I've given some answers above.
>
>> I believe a serious crystal set operator will use high end headphones
>> however.  I believe various military headsets are valued for this use
>> due to their high sensitivity.  So the functioning of an inexpensive
>> peizo earpiece may not be so relevant, but interesting anyway.  When I
>> read about the detail explored to characterize the detecting diode I was
>> very impressed.  So I can see every part of such a simple radio being
>> optimized to the nth degree.
>
> Perhaps. The earpiece still has to present some load, or it will
> receive no energy. For optimum power transfer, you want its audio
> impedance to roughly approximate the equivalent parallel resistance
> across the tank - which is why Q gets halved. Or not... perhaps
> that only happens on audio half-cycles.

"Presenting a load" is a description of the power transfer.  Of course 
that has to happen or you don't hear a signal.  But how much of that 
power gets converted to sound depends on the earpiece used.


> Anyhow, those are the reasons for my skepticism about the whole
> project. If the detector and earpiece presented a purely resistive
> load, or even a fixed capacitive+R load, regardless of audio
> polarity, then you wouldn't get a double hump. But I think that's
> unlikely.

Theory is nice, but it is easy to miss important aspects.  That's why 
people build crystal radios, to learn what is important and what is not.

-- 

Rick C

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Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core?  "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-14 20:18 -0800
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-14 22:21 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 23:43 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-15 12:27 -0800
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:19 -0700
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-15 18:51 -0800
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 20:08 -0700
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 00:24 -0400
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 22:17 -0700
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-16 13:04 -0500
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 02:48 -0400
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-03-15 06:35 -0700
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-15 12:46 -0800
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:22 -0700
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> - 2017-03-30 01:42 +0100
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 18:20 -0700
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-16 08:44 +0200
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 00:17 -0700
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-17 00:58 +0200
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 16:19 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-15 13:01 -0800
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:39 -0400
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:33 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core?  "Dave M" <dgminala@mediacombb.net> - 2017-03-15 09:40 -0500
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:26 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-15 08:25 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-03-15 12:38 -0500
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 17:28 -0700
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-15 17:59 -0700
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 18:10 -0700
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-16 08:20 -0700
              Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-16 09:45 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-16 10:26 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 15:47 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-16 17:15 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 17:36 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-16 18:46 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 23:45 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 07:30 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-17 08:28 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-17 11:38 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 12:21 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-17 13:08 -0800
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-18 10:32 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 17:10 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 22:31 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 14:53 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 20:38 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-03-18 18:10 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:39 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-03-19 09:53 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-19 12:27 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 22:11 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-19 10:41 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-17 17:13 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 17:28 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-18 12:21 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Allan Herriman <allanherriman@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-18 12:15 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-17 17:36 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-17 18:09 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-17 18:21 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-18 10:49 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-18 08:30 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? mkolber1@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 12:49 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-18 12:57 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-18 23:48 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:08 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-18 13:09 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-18 04:08 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-19 12:32 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-19 10:45 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-20 11:08 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-19 22:31 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-20 16:31 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-21 01:19 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-22 19:15 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-18 10:41 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 14:47 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-19 00:22 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-19 12:39 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 19:11 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-19 13:15 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 04:26 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-21 13:17 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-21 01:32 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-21 10:38 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-21 02:53 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-21 01:01 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-21 12:33 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-21 09:42 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 19:05 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-21 12:49 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 18:39 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-21 22:39 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-21 12:30 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-19 17:43 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-21 14:39 +0200
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-21 09:46 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-17 17:31 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 17:46 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-17 18:18 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-21 09:55 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 07:27 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? DemonicTubes <tlackie@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 09:11 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-17 11:40 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 12:29 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-17 12:25 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-18 16:20 -0400
              Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 15:41 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-16 16:14 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 16:25 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-19 11:22 -0500
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-15 21:20 -0500
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-15 23:02 -0500
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 22:52 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 02:48 -0400
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 00:10 -0700
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-16 08:21 -0500
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 16:10 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Bill Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> - 2017-03-16 12:12 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-16 13:06 -0700
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-16 15:39 -0500
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-16 19:57 -0700
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-18 21:26 -0500
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-17 09:44 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-17 17:35 -0700
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-17 18:35 -0800
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-20 09:01 -0700
  Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-19 08:20 -0500
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-19 15:31 -0800
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 19:42 -0400
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-19 19:20 -0500
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 17:49 -0700
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-19 20:19 -0500
              Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2017-03-19 19:44 -0800
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 00:00 -0400
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 23:56 -0400
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 08:36 -0500
              Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-20 09:29 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 12:54 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 13:16 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-20 12:31 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 16:46 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 17:17 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-20 18:25 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 17:15 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 18:25 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 17:56 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-20 18:49 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-21 00:19 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-21 07:27 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-21 07:28 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-21 11:24 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 13:39 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-23 13:52 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-23 16:48 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-23 23:58 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 01:13 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 07:00 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 12:47 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 15:13 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 17:05 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 08:44 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 09:13 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-24 09:40 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 13:08 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-24 13:42 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-24 14:20 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-24 22:46 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-24 22:13 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 09:29 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-25 11:33 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 15:20 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-25 15:25 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 19:17 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-25 17:02 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 21:25 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 20:10 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 21:32 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 22:42 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-26 00:00 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-26 04:00 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-26 05:36 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-26 09:34 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-26 10:23 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-26 13:10 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-27 09:32 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 14:44 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 16:34 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 16:12 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 17:44 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 17:08 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-25 16:00 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 18:27 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 19:31 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-25 21:21 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 23:42 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-25 17:34 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 16:34 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 17:21 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 18:27 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 17:54 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 20:55 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 20:09 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 21:28 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 21:23 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 23:25 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-21 07:54 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-21 07:57 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-21 11:54 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-21 12:21 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-21 21:40 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 13:27 -0400
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-03-20 15:41 -0800
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-20 19:13 -0500
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 21:18 -0400
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-03-21 04:35 -0500
    Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-20 11:06 +0200
      Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-24 10:14 -0700
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 13:59 -0400
          Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-24 13:36 -0700
            Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 13:49 -0400
              Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 21:39 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-26 07:35 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-26 13:15 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-27 07:46 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 10:59 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-27 09:22 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 23:47 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 18:15 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 03:42 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 19:07 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 04:35 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 21:58 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-28 09:42 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-28 12:51 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-28 07:23 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 13:28 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-30 00:37 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 21:02 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-28 09:57 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-28 09:05 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-28 11:27 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 13:29 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-27 14:57 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-27 07:25 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-27 09:47 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-27 19:51 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-27 12:21 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 18:54 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 10:16 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-27 16:58 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 23:33 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 18:18 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 03:48 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-28 07:28 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-28 13:41 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-28 07:44 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-28 18:22 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 04:01 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-28 11:04 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-28 10:58 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-28 11:13 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-28 10:12 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 13:47 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-29 14:18 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-30 00:47 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-29 19:15 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 21:40 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-29 14:26 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 23:47 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-29 10:18 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-29 19:12 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-29 11:49 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-03-29 18:21 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-29 14:19 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-03-29 18:01 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2017-03-30 02:35 +0000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-29 14:23 +1100
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 23:46 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-03-30 21:40 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-31 20:08 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-04-02 12:59 +1000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 23:55 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-04-02 14:36 +1000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 01:56 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-04-02 18:11 +1000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-04-02 07:35 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? mkolber1@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 06:16 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-04-03 07:40 +1000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-04-02 08:12 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-04-03 08:47 +1000
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-04-02 18:39 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-04-02 21:22 -0500
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-04-03 14:12 -0700
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 23:25 -0400
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-28 12:58 +0300
                Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-27 07:52 -0700
        Re: Antenna ferrite loopsticks verses air core? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-24 21:35 +0200

csiph-web