Groups > sci.electronics.design > #447624

Re: Arduino / compilers on uC

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: Arduino / compilers on uC
Date	2017-02-14 10:01 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o7ugtl$20f$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <Wh0nA.89206$8K.21381@fx46.am4> <o7shtm$9o$1@dont-email.me> <WhkoA.440018$sc6.92372@fx25.am4> <o7ske5$9su$1@dont-email.me> <9RkoA.318418$a22.98578@fx28.am4>

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On 13/02/17 17:07, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 13/02/17 15:49, David Brown wrote:
>> On 13/02/17 16:29, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Fair enough.  You said it "has been unsuccessfully straddling two
>> stools".  However, it has, in fact, been remarkably successful for both
>> purposes.  It has been pushed out from many "general purpose high-level
>> language for application" uses - mainly because there are alternatives
>> that give far better productivity rather than because C is so bad for
>> the purpose.
> 
> Not just productivity.
> 
> More modern and more closely specified languages enable
> the correct construction of far more complex and
> ambitious systems, including by typical programmers.
> 

Yes, but these go hand-in-hand.  In C, I could write code for an
efficient and leak-free string indexed hash table.  But in Python, I can
use "ht = dict()" and it's done.  (In C++, I could look up the right
headers and the convoluted template syntax, and it is done in half a
dozen lines - it's a compromise.)  The greater productivity means I can
write more advanced systems.

(I mostly use C on embedded systems, and mostly Python on PC's.)

> Which enables them to make new classes of cockup :(
> (But as I taught my daughter, "let's make new mistakes")
> 

It's called "learning by experience" :-)  And it's more enjoyable than
making the same mistakes again and again.

> 
>> And C reigns supreme for "low-level near-the-silicon" code.
> 
> Agreed. But there are other's coming along in the that
> domain; maybe some will succeed.

C++ is taking over more, and we are seeing more embedded systems written
in higher-level code than before (use an 800 MHz ARM running Linux and
Python instead of a 40 MHz ARM running C or C++).  But it will be a long
time before any of the newcomers like Go or Rust are realistic for the
low-level code.

> 
> C will never disappear, just as Cobol and PDP11s
> are still around.

No - C is still popular, unlike Cobol and PDP11's.  New stuff is written
in C.  Its longevity, portability and stability are some of its key
selling points.

> 
> 
>>>>> Maybe having a memory model will help, but it is astoundingly
>>>>> difficult to get that right across multiple architectures.
>>>>
>>>> That is why much of it is left undefined by the C standards.
>>>> Nonetheless, people seem to manage.
>>>
>>> Emphasis on "seem", especially with XP and TDD programming
>>> practices. Multithreading errors are notoriously difficult
>>> to reliably provoke during testing. As a hardware engineer,
>>> it has always surprised me how many such errors are made
>>> by most programmers.
>>
>> You can't get multi-threading correct by trial and error - you have to
>> know what you are doing.  That applies in all languages.  C gives you no
>> help there (though some C compilers do, with tools like gcc/clang's
>> sanitizers), and certainly some other languages make it easier to get
>> multi-threading right.
> 
> Of course.
> 
> But C goes further by actively stating that such
> considerations are outside the scope of C and are
> the libraries' responsibility. Which would be fine
> except that the libraries have to rely on things
> that C avoids specifying. (Caveat: maybe not the
> latest incarnations)
> 
> Consequence: either the compiler+libraries must
> be a unit, or there might be subtle errors lurking
> in corners. And "compiler" means the specific
> version of a compiler, since they change over time.
> 

Yes.  This has always been the way of C.  The language is specifically
designed for two different types of coding - portable coding written to
match the standards-defined behaviour so that the same code can be used
on a wide variety of systems, and implementation-specific coding written
to get the best out of a particular target or to use features that
cannot be portable.

Thread

Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 15:43 -0800
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 10:58 +1100
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 19:09 -0500
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:30 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 21:43 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 19:02 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 23:26 -0500
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 21:05 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 13:55 +1100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:00 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 19:31 +1100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:29 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-07 07:39 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:24 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 08:36 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 08:15 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 15:37 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 15:35 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-07 08:05 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:30 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-02-06 15:59 -0800
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 16:04 -0800
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:41 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 14:08 +1100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:14 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:00 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 05:42 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 15:07 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-09 09:54 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:55 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 08:46 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:42 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 06:54 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 07:31 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 07:59 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-11 17:01 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 12:52 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-11 18:46 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-12 10:20 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:07 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:16 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:39 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:06 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 15:29 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:49 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-13 10:55 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 17:09 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 09:49 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 16:07 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 10:01 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-14 09:49 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-17 04:21 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-16 14:47 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 00:17 +0000
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 19:49 +1100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 06:22 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:42 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 06:57 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 16:12 +0100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 08:24 +1100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 19:08 -0500
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:47 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 21:51 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:39 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:55 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 20:05 +1100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-08 12:26 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-08 12:32 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-09 08:31 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-09 08:21 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 13:33 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:15 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 05:51 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:22 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 16:45 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 16:51 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 09:11 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:45 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-15 10:11 -0500
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:57 +0100
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:07 +0000
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:01 -0500
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:40 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 05:52 -0500
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 11:26 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 12:58 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:52 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:47 +0000
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 14:00 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-09 13:24 -0600
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:52 +0100
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:50 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:49 -0500
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-07 12:45 +1000
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:51 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-08 06:35 +1000
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-08 06:44 +1000
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-07 17:11 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:40 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-08 07:01 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 17:25 +0100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC jack4747@gmail.com - 2017-02-09 06:51 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 16:41 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:44 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:14 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 12:57 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 14:11 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 14:40 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-16 15:58 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 15:56 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 16:45 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 17:18 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 14:24 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-02-17 21:07 +0200
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 20:16 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 23:28 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-17 10:21 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 16:34 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:43 -0500
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-10 10:41 -0600
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 07:06 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-11 17:09 +0000
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:28 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-14 09:59 -0600
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-14 13:46 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 10:04 +0100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-15 05:57 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 16:02 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 17:15 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-16 14:19 -0600

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