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Re: Arduino / compilers on uC

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Arduino / compilers on uC
Date 2017-02-13 16:06 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o7shtm$9o$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <58993a1f$0$25382$b1db1813$e2fc9064@news.astraweb.com> <b09fadc6-3f9e-42cc-b66d-36e7751d1afd@googlegroups.com> <48fmA.157015$6N1.154146@fx09.am4> <fbe16b9e-6b68-44fd-a42a-025b2b55c232@googlegroups.com> <Wh0nA.89206$8K.21381@fx46.am4>

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On 09/02/17 16:55, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 09/02/17 13:42, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 3:00:05 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>> On 07/02/17 04:14, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 10:08:19 PM UTC-5, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're not understanding--I'm fully aware that I can go so far as to
>>>> embed
>>>> assembly if I choose.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the compiler is jumping though hoops to map virtual
>>>> pin numbers
>>>> to physical ports and pins is exactly my point: it's solving
>>>> problems that
>>>> a human programmer wouldn't have to.  I'd just read-modify-write the
>>>> port
>>>> with the appropriate mask.
>>>>
>>>> BUT, what the naive users have and use, is layers and layers
>>>> abstracted from
>>>> the hardware doing the actual work.
>>>
>>> That's a major objective of libraries and
>>> environments in general.
>>
>> To an extent, true. More often my aim in using a pre-written function is
>> to avoid repeating the work, not avoiding understanding the task.
>>
>> 'C' was conceived as a portable assembly language, so it's bizarre and
>> ironic that this portable 'assembly' doesn't guarantee the size of its
>> basic variables--that's one of the most basic elements of assembly-level
>> programming.
> 
> Porting C code has /always/ been very difficult, and required
> arcane knowledge and extreme care; start by considering
> "porting" from twos complement to ones complement machines.

No, porting C code is not necessarily difficult.  C makes it quite clear
what behaviour is full specified by the C standards, what is
implementation-specified (i.e., different compiler implementations can
do things in different ways, but they have to tell you their choices in
their documentation), and what is undefined (i.e., the standards make no
comment on what happens).

If your code relies only on standards specified behaviour, and you use
conforming compilers, "porting" is just a matter of re-compiling.

If your code relies on implementation-defined behaviour, then porting is
a matter of checking that the new compiler fits your requirements.

If your code relies on undefined behaviour, you should fix the code
before you even think about porting.


Now, it is certainly the case that a good deal of code relies on
implementation-dependent behaviour.  And much of that does so in a /bad/
way (such as making assumptions about the size of an "int"), making code
porting difficult, rather than in a /good/ way (such as using
implementation-dependent sized integer types).  That is a problem with
the way C code is written, rather than a problem with C itself - and C99
included useful changes to make it easier to write good portable code.

> 
> But from the late 80s onwards it has been unsuccessfully
> straddling two stools: that of a general purpose high level
> language for applications and also for low-level near-the-silicon
> "system/firmware" code. Consider that multithreading behaviour
> is (was?) explicitly left undefined or implementation dependent,
> but POSIX thread implementations relied on that behaviour.

C has been, and continues to be, remarkably successful for such an
"unsuccessful" language.

> 
> Maybe having a memory model will help, but it is astoundingly
> difficult to get that right across multiple architectures.

That is why much of it is left undefined by the C standards.
Nonetheless, people seem to manage.

> Even the Java JVM's memory model was reworked in the light
> of experience.
> 
> Until ~1993 I vaguely followed the standards, but the
> eternal and /unresolvable/ "cast away constness" discussions
> convinced me that C (and doubly C++) was becoming a problem
> more than a solution.
> 
> You mustn't be able to cast away constness, since that
> might affect correctness. You must be able to cast away
> constness for some efficiency hacks and for things like
> debuggers.
> 
> That's unresolvable.

It is resolvable in some cases, unresolvable in others.  C++ takes an
alternative approach in some ways, which make it easier to be correct
but sometimes needs duplication in the source code.

> 
> C++ is worse; the designers *discovered* they'd created
> a monstrosity where you can cause the compiler to emit
> the sequence of prime numbers during compilation. The
> designers didn't believe it until someone demonstrated it!

The flexibility of templates was unintentional, but it is not a
"monstrosity" - it opened a new set of possibilities in the language.
The fact that you can compute prime numbers at compile-time with
templates does not mean that you /must/ compute prime numbers at
compile-time with templates - it is not a disadvantage in any way.  Many
assemblers have powerful enough macro languages to let you generate
primes at compile time - no one makes a big deal out of that.

With C++11, the language designers realised that powerful compile-time
computation functionality was actually very useful, but templates were a
cumbersome and inefficient way to do it - so they introduced constexpr
to make it easier.  C++14 made it even more flexible and convenient.

> 
> No, nowadays C++ is beyond mortal's comprehension, and
> C isn't much better.

Perhaps it is beyond /your/ comprehension.  Certainly C++ is a large and
complex language, and you can write code in it that is difficult to
understand without a good deal of experience.  But it is just a skill -
you can study it and learn it, if you have enough natural aptitude and
dedication.  Kind of like most other tasks in life.

> 
> Shame.
>

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Thread

Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 15:43 -0800
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 10:58 +1100
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 19:09 -0500
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:30 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 21:43 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 19:02 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 23:26 -0500
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 21:05 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 13:55 +1100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:00 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 19:31 +1100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:29 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-07 07:39 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:24 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 08:36 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 08:15 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 15:37 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 15:35 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-07 08:05 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:30 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-02-06 15:59 -0800
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 16:04 -0800
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:41 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 14:08 +1100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:14 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:00 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 05:42 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 15:07 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-09 09:54 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:55 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 08:46 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:42 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 06:54 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 07:31 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 07:59 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-11 17:01 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 12:52 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-11 18:46 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-12 10:20 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:07 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:16 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:39 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:06 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 15:29 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:49 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-13 10:55 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 17:09 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 09:49 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-13 16:07 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 10:01 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-14 09:49 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-17 04:21 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-16 14:47 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 00:17 +0000
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 19:49 +1100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 06:22 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:42 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 06:57 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 16:12 +0100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 08:24 +1100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 19:08 -0500
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:47 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-06 21:51 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:39 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 20:55 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-07 20:05 +1100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-08 12:26 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-08 12:32 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-09 08:31 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-09 08:21 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 13:33 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:15 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-09 05:51 -0800
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:22 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 16:45 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 16:51 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-02-10 09:11 +1100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:45 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-15 10:11 -0500
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:57 +0100
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:07 +0000
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:01 -0500
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:40 +0000
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 05:52 -0500
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 11:26 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 12:58 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:52 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 22:47 +0000
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-02-09 14:00 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-09 13:24 -0600
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:52 +0100
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-07 10:50 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:49 -0500
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-07 12:45 +1000
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 18:51 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-08 06:35 +1000
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2017-02-08 06:44 +1000
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-07 17:11 -0500
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:40 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-08 07:01 -0800
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 17:25 +0100
              Re: Arduino / compilers on uC jack4747@gmail.com - 2017-02-09 06:51 -0800
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 16:41 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:44 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:14 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 12:57 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 14:11 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 14:40 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-16 15:58 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 15:56 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 16:45 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-16 17:18 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 14:24 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-02-17 21:07 +0200
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-17 20:16 +0000
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 23:28 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-17 10:21 -0500
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-17 16:34 +0100
                Re: Arduino / compilers on uC M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:43 -0500
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-10 10:41 -0600
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-11 07:06 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-11 17:09 +0000
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 16:28 +0100
  Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-14 09:59 -0600
    Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-14 13:46 -0800
      Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 10:04 +0100
        Re: Arduino / compilers on uC dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-15 05:57 -0800
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 16:02 +0100
            Re: Arduino / compilers on uC David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 17:15 +0100
          Re: Arduino / compilers on uC Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-16 14:19 -0600

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